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Night Sailor wrote:Do you know that if you prepare to fill the ballast by opening both valves, then shift into reverse and run astern about 1 to 2 mph, you can fill the tank in about 3 minutes?

OTOH, I seem to have great difficulty keeping the boat square to the waves, in reverse.

I asked a novice helmsperson to do same one afternoon on SF Bay. She had lots of experience with an outboard runabout that could run circles around the 26X, but always on lakes, not the Bay. She managed to power into a good Bay swell, filling the cockpit with green water washing up to the seat level, a goodly portion of which was flushed down the companionway.

Finally, I've suggested this "reverse technique" on this board, and tried it myself a half dozen times. But I've never found that it managed to actually reduce the ballast fill-time. Nor have I been able to confirm that it can "super fill" the tank.

Your mileage obviously varies - more power to ya!
OOW!! (other opinions welcomed).

The heavier (315 pounds) 90 horse e-techs, tldi's and 60-70 horse 4 strokes really contribute to stability by keeping the center of gravity down low at the transom. I also alway carry at least 24 gallons (3 6gallon and 2 3 gallon) containers of gas in the lockers(one 6 gallon container on sole), my fully inflated 10 foot maxxon on deck, and heavier gear and stuff in rear berth. Loaded like this with wife and kid eithe in cockpit or forward berth, I've never needed ballast in rough conditions, boat cuts through chop at 11-15 knots or glassy 18-20 knots. One drawback to full ballast beside lower mpg is slower reaction time when negotiating swells, chop. Always wait for decent conditions to empty ballast and keep a straight line.
Rolf

I think the main point is being somewhat missed here. Its the people weight high and on the bow which causes the instability. The Mac is a hybrid hull, a flat planing hull from the board back and a sharp V sailing hull from the board forward. Put too much weight forward and its like you are on a fulcrum. The old timers may remember my story from when I first got my X (I think it was on the old board). Someone (purportedly the dealer) had put 150# of dumbells in the flotation at the very bow of the boat. My first time out (wanted to test it without the family on board) I didn't have enough experience to either fill the ballast or have any of the boards down while anchoring in a nasty little chop with about 15 mph winds. When I squatted on the bow to pull the anchor, adding another 200+ lbs to the 150 lbs already there, I got into an unstable roll oscillation. The boat almost flipped over WITH JUST ME ON IT. It was so freaky, I almost sold the boat. Since then of course, I learned the errors of my ways (and the dealer), removed the dumbells and have been fine ever since.

But I'm with Duane, I hardly ever fill my ballast when motoring and I have a family of 7 now. My kids like to hang out below quite a bit and with all that weight on board and down low, the Mac is quite stable even without ballast.

Frank, I disagree with your comment. I think you can fill the ballast completely and much faster by motoring in reverse a bit. This especially holds true if I am just by myself on the boat. There isn't enough weight and it takes forever to fill the ballast. With the whole family on board, it fills MUCH faster and in fact, I have to be careful not to overfill it too quickly.

Dimitri-2000X-Tampa wrote: With the whole family on board, it fills MUCH faster and in fact, I have to be careful not to overfill it too quickly.

How do you overfill the ballast?


jackie m

Remember also different boats from different years have different valve sets that change the fill time.

On mine, the oldest config with the small valve on the port transom, the bottom valve at the step, and the vent at the step, I can fill pretty quickly with both intake valves open. I've never needed to try the reverse trick. I do have to watch out for the overfilled condition. The step vent is low and you have to be ready with the plug. The tank will start to burp and within a burp or two it will spurt water out the vent hole. Lately I have not even been bothering with the bottom intake. Usually I am filling when the boat is at rest and I just wait the extra few minutes it takes to fill with the transom valve alone.

The next version of the system with the vent forward but still the small valve there is less chance of water overfilling because the valve is higher but the fill time is slower with only the small transom valve.

In the last version of the system with the larger valve to starboard and the forward vent you get the quickest and most overfill free system.

I've always thought putting in a second transom valve would be the best way to get an even quicker fill. The tank is in contact with the transom on both sides in all models. I confirmed this just last weekend when I installed my new transducers on the starboard side. The screws go into the tank so I have no worries about leaks. It would be a pretty simple thing to cut a hole on whichever side you don't currently have a valve on and install a second. (Do crawl way back there and inspect things before you cut however! You never know when the factory may have changed the molds.)

I have a 96 26x and I have crawed back to the transom today and many times before. I have installed an outboard x 2, a transducer, new steering system , wire to vhf. The ballast tank does not make contact with the transom on the starboard side. I don't like being disagreeable , but I
also don't like the idea of sitting on info that may help another mac sailor.
the starboard side has a stringer that resembles the port side ballast channel, the stringer is a long 3-4" X 3/4 board laid on edge on the hull in the bilge running fore and aft and glassed over to give strength and rigidity. My boat was built late nov 95.
Tom 26x

I try to store heavy things--tools, water, beer, etc--down low to increase stability. I have the M so there is 300lbs of permanant ballast. I also have the added lead in my dagger board. I've had the boat heeling at +45 deg (that's as high as my indicator goes) sails up, no ballast and no loss of stability. I would recommend that people be in the cabin rather than on deck if there's no ballast. A sailboat has a lot of weight and windage aloft compared to a planing motor boat.

Folks,
If you have added weight to your MacGregor 26X, whether in the form of people, cabinetry, potable water, generators, porta-potti, etc. you should always have the water ballast full. The issue is that the MacGregor 26X is a very HIGH, SHALLOW, FLAT BOTTOM boat and the only thing that prevents it from capsizing is the water ballast. A vessel with such properties will turtle with the minimum of a side force like a wave or someone just standing by the mast. All you need is the right side force to flip it on its side.

Be Safe, not stupid. Always Sail or Motor a MacGregor 26X with the Water Ballast Full.

Let me explain what happens when a MacGregor goes on its side while it is moving forward at 8 knots:
- The speaders hit the water and force the mast to sink.
- The mast/spreaders then serve as a pivot for the boat.
- The boat then pivots around the mast throwing anyone in the cockpit
to the side and forward.
- Anyone in the cabin is thrown about and will most likely become unconscious.
- Due to the pivot, water rushes in from the rear and fills the cockpit floor/side.
- The weight of the water sinks the side of the boat allowing the cabin
to be filled. You'd be amazed how much and how quickly water comes in.
- All electronics in the cabin are history and unless you have a
submergible radio, you can't contact anyone.
- If your flares are in the cabin. You won't be able to get to them. Basically, if you don't have any emergency items on the cockpit or outside, you won't be able to get to them.
- If you have kids or people in the cabin below (which I did not), you better start thinking about a mortuary. Because the strength on the water rushing in, the violence of the pivot and the confusion of it all, they won't make it.
- The mast then sinks and the boat takes the turtle position.

And all this in 1-2 minutes.

One thing is for sure. The 26X does not sink, but is sure turtles.

In my case, we just got wet and a nasty fright. I still have my 26X. But whether under sail or motor, I always have the water ballast full.

I've had the boat heeling at +45 deg (that's as high as my indicator goes) sails up, no ballast and no loss of stability.

Living dangerously Daniel

TW,

Your statement is not correct, we have a 1400+ miles on our X almost all under power and without water ballast. We scramble all over the deck day after day without ballast while fishing and playing at anchor. An X without ballast will not roll at a moments notice. It will take 4'+ seas without any problem from front back or side, it doesn't matter. (It does launch off the waves and slam down however if you are going faster than 5 knots without ballast in rough conditions.) We run our X flat out at 16 knots towing tubes and slam the wheel hard over turning donuts to make the tube ride more exciting, all without ballast.

Through all this over 6 years with the boat it has never given any sign it was even close to rolling over. Our boat is very heavily loaded for extended cruising with hundreds of pounds of equipment stored below. The bulk of this is all in the under seat lockers placing the weight below the waterline where it does enhance stability just as much as the water ballast does.

tw wrote: - The mast then sinks and the boat takes the turtle position.
And all this in 1-2 minutes.
One thing is for sure. The 26X does not sink, but is sure turtles.
In my case, we just got wet and a nasty fright. I still have my 26X. But whether under sail or motor, I always have the water ballast full.

Welcome abd, tw. Sorry to hear of your mishap, but I've read of a dozen other capsized 26Xs but only two others that turtled. The suspicion is that at least one of those was due to partial ballast.

I disagree with almost everything in your post, though must admit that all heavy gear is securely stowed deep in the boat - and there's actually not that much weight in mine. In fact, I feel the boat is actually safer with ballast empty at high motoring speeds - just my opinion. The boat heels reliably & consistently into every turn, and since it's 1400 pounds lighter it's more maneuverable (but I always add ballast before hoisting sails.)

Maneuverability is improtant in heavy swells and when exposed to large wakes ... both frequent in SF Bay. So, when my sails are furled I prefer the tank empty. There's just one caveat I'd grant ... if my crew exceeds 5 persons, I agree that ballast is advisable. Otherwise, my 26X is as stable and more responsive with empty tank. Fair seas!

TW:
I'm Ric K. We also met in Catalina. I too was very impressed with your story regarding the capsize of your X, and happy to hear nobody got hurt.
The sailing conditions you described to me, the wind , curents, waves, that you have in San Francisco, far exeed the mellow conditions I experiance in San Diego County where I'm from. In the 2 years I've had my X which I sail year round from my slip in Oceanside, I've never had to reef my main sail. I understand you never take the reef out of your mainsail!
I think under your conditions in SF, I would keep my ballast in at all times. In San Diego I remove it most of the time , when I power (conditons permiting , and size of crew 4 or less).
TW could you share with this board the parts that you broke on your X while on some of your sailing excursions, and how fast you were able to sail your boat, Was it 14 knots?
After all the problems you had with with your boat, I got the impression that you still like Mac Gregors.
I hope you resolved your heat sensor problem on your Suzuki 50, some on this board might want to know that the sensor broke when you were removing it.
Ric

Frank C wrote:

tw wrote: - The mast then sinks and the boat takes the turtle position.

And all this in 1-2 minutes.

One thing is for sure. The 26X does not sink, but is sure turtles.

In my case, we just got wet and a nasty fright. I still have my 26X. But whether under sail or motor, I always have the water ballast full.

I disagree with almost everything in your post...

Me too.

I have yet to ever experience any such critical instability. TW, if what you say is true, then with the amount of Mac's sold to date there would surely be a great many news reports about deaths and injuries. If you can produce these, I'll agree with you. So far I think I've only ever heard of 2 or 3 such incidents in the past 6 years, and those were with horribly overloaded boats, set up with incorrect 'fin' configurations, and travelling at high speeds under power, not sail, and piloted by intoxicated persons.

I was out on the Chesapeake Bay two weeks ago and had a stability problem. I had three adults and two children ages 3 & 2. We had been sailing in light winds less than 10 knots and decided to call it a day. At my marina the launch ramp is at a bad angle for retriving the mac. If I back the trailor in far enough to submerge the v then I end up having to wade out to retreve the boat so I usually bring it in with the v just out of the water and crank the boat on to the trailor. Obviously this is an impossible task if the ballast is full so I always empty the ballast on the way in when conditions permit.
Anyway, on this day the water was like glass and winds were light so I thought nothing about emptying ballast. The ballast was about half empty when "a very nice gentelman" on his 45 foot cabin cruiser passed me from astern at about 40Knots and less than 10 feet from my starboard side. I felt the boat lean to port and felt the ballast shift. We went over about 50* and I thought we were going to be knocked down but the mac held and slowly, very slowly, came back up. It is too bad they don't give out any common curtosy lessons with those big boats. We were lucky this time that no one was hurt.
Lesson learned: Don't empty ballast in the main traffic channel.

I feel a need to clarify my comments. Tony's story is definitely familiar. I too have suffered that sort of wild instability when the boat has partial ballast. In my case, I had 5 adults abd, motoring at about 10 knots in heavy SF Bay chop (guessimate close-spaced 3-footers) and it was during my first boating season. I had opened ballast gate for stability while anchored, but never remembered it after that. Upon powering into the Bay for return to dock, the ballast self-emptied - but only partially due to continuous attitude changes across the chop.

The only other times I have felt a "wild instability" was due to centerboard. Recently, the centerboard line had been knocked loose by a guest (4 souls). I was powering back to marina, speed about 10 to 12, and the boat's bow took a wild swing up a quarter-stbd wake as she heeled hard to port. Skipper's error ... Again! The hanging board will (possibly) grossly exacerbate any change in attitude.

The 26X demands the Skipper's close attention to both state of the ballast tank, and the Centerboard, especially true when the cockpit holds 4 adults. Of course, ballast 'n board are important for safe sailing, but I've NEVER felt unsafe when sailing.

I know that many Mac owners routinely host large crews - 7 adults in TW's case. I do not - 5 persons max (usually only 2 or 3 aboard). Quite honestly, I do not feel the boat is big enough for more than 5 adults. So, upon reflection I guess I agree with TW on this point ... the Skipper must be acutely aware of board 'n ballast for safe motoring in the 26X, especially with extra crew, especially in chop.