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I accept as absolute truth the statement that keeping people on the boat is better than figuring out how to get them back on once they've fallen overboard. The first mate and I both have the Sospenders (WM) autoinflator PFDs with integral harness as pictured by Moe, and the matching tethers with Wichard safety clip on the boat end, quick release snap shackle on the harness end.

What we don't have is any reasonable place to hook them. I've tried it, and it's not reasonable to hook it to the spare mainsheet eye on the pedestal. When hooked there or to the lifelines (not good for other reasons as well) stanchions, cleats or anwhere else in the cockpit, it wraps around the pedestal, the wheel, the motor controls, your own feet, and gets tangled in the mainsheet. Although it certainly keeps me from falling out of the boat, it just as effectively prevents me from doing any of the things I need to do while in the cockpit. Get in a hurry to reach something on the other side of the cockpit, and instead get fetched up against the end of the tether with your objective out of reach, and you'll soon tire of it and disconnect it. Both ends hooked to the harness keeps it mostly out of the way and makes you look pretty salty when traversing about, but it's not too useful as safety equipment.

The reality is, hooking oneself with a 6' tether to a fixed location anywhere on the boat is completely impractical. This also demonstrates one of the fundamental problems with a lot of safety equipment and a corrolary truism: if it's too much trouble, I'm not going to use it, so its safety value is zero.

The second reality is, crew is fairly unlikely to fall overboard when in the cockpit. The most dangerous activity is to leave the cockpit and go on up on the foredeck. I have a roller furler and have led all my lines aft, so I have reduced the necessity to leave the cockpit as much as I can. With this in mind, there is little payback in further reducing the probability of an accident that is fairly remote in the first place.

So when I do need to go onto the foredeck, what to attach to? It appears to me the only reasonable solution is purpose installed jacklines along the length of the boat. I've yet to figure out how (or even whether) I want to do this.

But let's say I do. Here's another point. In order to allow me to easily stand, move about, and accomplish any of those things which need to be done while wearing it, the tether is 6' long. But on a boat of only 8' maximum beam, I don't see any way to place jacklines which will actually prevent me from falling overboard. So the purpose of a tether and harness is not to keep me in the boat. About the best I can hope for is that once I've gone over it will keep me attached to the boat by dragging me along, and we've failed to accomplish the original fundamental concept: staying in the boat.

So we're now we're in the marine equivalent of being between a rock and a hard place: Is it better to be attached to the boat and drug, possibly at fairly high speed, or to break away? I really don't know.

To carry the discussion on through to its conclusion, remember I've got on my autoinflator PFD, so hopefully I won't have to fight to keep my head above water while being drug. Even so, it is certainly not a circumstance I'm eagerly anticipating. My tether has the quick release snap shackle, so if being drug isn't working out favorably, and if I have the presense of mind to do so and if am not injured to the point of incapacitation, and if I can get to the release, I can then decide whether it is better to continue to be drug or to release and take my chances I will be picked up.

But if it's fairly likely that I'll yank the quick release and cut myself loose, then why exactly did I tie myself to the boat in the first place? I have the harness and tether, but what good are they? I must confess, I'm not really sure.

One of the things to consider when reading on POB strategies is that they are made for boats where dropping the main and headsail are a lot harder than they are on the Mac.

I have practiced sailing to a POB in the form of a cushion thrown overboard and it sucks - often as I am on a tidal river and it gets away from me. I rarely get optimal sail shape since i am busy watching the 'POB' and doing other things, so pointing to the wind is nasty.
Picking up a POB on a run doesnt seem to smart in my book, so you seem dedicated to having to come back upwind to recover.

....so my First strategy is drop sails and motor, using the deployed Lifesling II as the pickup device. Might not be for purists but so be it. I think I can beat any sailor to a POB target point with this strategy...I dont think the prop danger argument holds water as its easy to keep the prop away from the POB with this device.

I have a Harken 225 block on the Lifesling line permanently, once the POB is in the Lifesling we snap the block on the main boom bail, then secure the boom to the mast raising post, and winch them in. This minimises or eliminates the lateral force issues on the boat. You can actively retrieve using the swim ladder or get them onto the transom using the Lifeslling as a lift device - two people can assist for a passive lift if required.

....so my First strategy is drop sails and motor, using the deployed Lifesling II as the pickup device. Might not be for purists but so be it. I think I can beat any sailor to a POB target point with this strategy...

I'll take that wager. I don't have a Lifesling (yet) so it'll have to be something like picking up a cushion with a boathook. Dinner at Yono's?

It seems to different situations have been discussed here - how to get someone back on board when there is someone still on board, and what to do if you are in danger of going overboard or have gone overboard when you are out by yourself.

While motoring by yourself using the safety kill switch on the motor will stop the boat from speeding away from you. So using a safety tether to keep you attached to the boat makes some sense. You would only be dragged for a little bit as the boat lost momentum.

For sailing maybe some kind of trip line could be rigged that would be trailed behind the boat in the water that when pulled would release the sail sheets and stop the boat from sailing away like the kill switch on the motor.

For staying on the boat while in the cockpit it seems to me the best location for attaching a safety tether would be low and centered in the forward part of the cockpit. The aft side of the bridge deck on the M would be such a location but possibly too far from the wheel. The tiller arrangement of the M19 makes this an easier proposition. For boats like the X and M maybe a ring around the base of the steering column would work allowing the tether to move to any side of the column as you moved.

hmmmm

IF I am only dragged a little bit.........does that make me the drogue??

or is that Mr. drogue.....

or for me.....

the wet (waternwaves) drogue

cant have a wet drogue in the house........besides............they stink.....

A little insight from the occasionally blind here..........

I only tether to the sternrails now........ it keeps the harness out of my way. I got tired of draping over the wheel and having it on the wrong side or fouled with the keyswitch.

The only weak point now is what to tether to when forward in the cockpit...., I currently use a line doubled to the mast.......

This may sound stupid.....
but I will explain.......,

If I ever do get washed overboard while amid or foreship, I need enough line to reach the back of the boat to re-enter...

I have tried to climb into the boat from the bow and sides.......

not a chance I am going to make it with out that extra line.

Yeah, that first rule - stay in the boat - is pretty obvious, but the second rule, especially when single-handing*, is rigging the boat to stop.

The ignition halyard is a possiblity for motoring, and the Mac's natural tendency to round-up can stop her under sail. But if you're sailing alone with an autopilot ...?

A wireless link to a battery kill-switch might actually be feasible in the near future. Something less far-fetched is a kill-switch (strain gauge?) that detects when the jackline has been yanked, but it's also easy to visualize how that could backfire. Anyhow, this is where the last thread ended ... without any good conclusions on how to stop the boat from sailing on autopilot.



* If you go overboard when NOT single-handing, that's prolly what she had in mind

My quick answer to that is to hook the tether to autopilot control cable.

Given enough force it will part.........

course you're gonna have to dive for the pieces of your autopilot that went overboard......lol, but I am sure that electrical cable cannot take the strain of a dragging carcass (my size).

In fact, that is probably a good reason to put an extra connector in the cable to separate them all.....

If you had jack lines on each side, while on the fore deck it seems like you could use two tethers, one on each jack line, to help keep you on the boat. The starboard jackline/tether would keep you from going over on the port side, and on the starboard side the port tether would keep you from going completely overboard.

Eric O wrote:If you had jack lines on each side, while on the fore deck it seems like you could use two tethers, one on each jack line, to help keep you on the boat. The starboard jackline/tether would keep you from going over on the port side, and on the starboard side the port tether would keep you from going completely overboard.

There are also tethers that have both a 3' and a 6' lead. You could use the 6' in the cockpit and switch to the 3' when going up on deck, using on central jackline.

Personally, I'd use a 6' stretch type attached to the grab bar when in the cockpit and keep a 3' on the jackline, switching to it when going forward.

I don't see anywhere I couldn't go in the cockpit with a 6' tether on the grab bar and that's with it having to wrap around one side of my considerable girth.

If you move from one side of the boat to the other behind the pedestal when tacking and gybing, putting the main sheet on the original attachment point and the tether on the grab bar should work better. However, if you're single-handing and sit forward of the pedestal, crossing under the boom when tacking and gybing, keeping the mainsheet on the grab bar and tethering to the original attachment point would help prevent the tether getting tangled with the mainsheet.

WW wrote:My quick answer to that is to hook the tether to autopilot control cable.

We've had this discussion before. Whether cutting the power to the AP would do any good depends on a lot of stuff.

On my Raymarine ST4000, cutting the power simply stops the motor. Are most others different? In any case, the wheel remains locked in whatever position it was in when the power was cut. Absent a "favorable" wind shift and depending on the point of sail it's quite likely she could continue to sail away indefinitiely, until encountering the proverbial immovable object.

If you could rig something up that would release (break?) the wheel clutch, and you set up the rig so that there was considerable weather helm (something usually considered unfavorable except in this particular circumstance) causing her to naturally round up, there's some hope. Not much, I'm thinking. I've found that except in instances of fairly severe weather helm, the small (but not zero) additional drag of the autopilot drive pretty effectively prevents the rudders from backdriving the wheel.

Eric wrote:If you had jack lines on each side, while on the fore deck it seems like you could use two tethers, one on each jack line, to help keep you on the boat. The starboard jackline/tether would keep you from going over on the port side, and on the starboard side the port tether would keep you from going completely overboard.

You can't attach to an offside jackline until you're forward of the mast. If you're going to try to move forward always tethered to two jacklines (IMO, verging on the impossible, but let's just say you can) the jacklines must be inside the lifelines. I don't think you gain very much in the way of preventing you from falling off the boat. The maximum distance between port and starboard jacklines inside the lifelines on the foredeck of the Mac is no more than a couple feet, so that I believe you could quite easily go over the side with both tethers attached.

Moe wrote:There are also tethers that have both a 3' and a 6' lead.

Yes, but a harness puts the tether in the middle of your chest. Unless you're about 4' tall, there's no way you can stand up attached to a deck mounted jackline by a 3' tether. You'll be reduced to crabbing to move around on the foredeck. Perhaps if you're really concerned about going OB that's the best way to move around on the foredeck anyway, but still, it badly restricts your ability to actually accomplish what you moved forward to do in the first place.

Such comments about harnesses, tethers and potential use of jacklines leads me to conclude you've never used them aboard the Mac. Please correct me if I'm wrong. I have tried. I'm disposed to defend them based on the investment I have made already, but I just can't do it. I'm not quite ready to give up yet, but I believe you're badly underestimating what a royal PITA they are.

Chip,

Not trying to be argumentative, yeah I know you cringe (or bristle) when I start out that way, but...

I'm 6'. It seems to me that most harnesses I've seen put the tether attachment below "mid-chest". With me standing, I'm guessing that it wouldn't be much over 4' high.

For you to be able to slide a ring, clip, etc. along its length, a jackline would have to be free along that length, right?

Well, with a 3' tether, I gotta believe a jackline could be tensioned to allow me to stand up rather freely near the mid-point, and maybe crouch near the secured end(s)... Of course, if your at the bow, wouldn't you be crouching anyway. After all, what are you doing up there if not working on something near the deck?

That tension would be downward and could be configured generally toward the centerline of the boat. That might truely help keep me on the boat...

Thinking a bit further, a 3' tether might very well prevent me from getting all the way in the water, even if I did fall... Sure, that jackline is going to flex that foot or so toward the side you fall over. But, that means you can only go 4, maybe 5, feet from the centerline. hull, even 6 feet from the center line probably wouldn't let me go all the way into the water, especially if the lifelines survive my big butt falling overboard... I'd be suspended along side the boat, with that harness attachment point probably no more than a couple of feet from the deck (it might be more near the bow). Provided I'm not unconscious, or injured, I might be able get a leg up and haul myself back aboard... If I'm unconscious, it'd still likely keep my head out of the water... If I'm injured, I might still be able to use my wireless AP remote (winter project) to control the boat.

It seems to me that if I get in rough water, a good tight jackline or two down the center line of the boat and 3' tether might be just what I need to go forward safely. But, no, I've never even tried a jackline or tether on a boat... So, I must defer...

I also agree that the best thing is probably staying in the cockpit, and therefore leading all lines aft...

DLT wrote:I also agree that the best thing is probably staying in the cockpit, and therefore leading all lines aft...

And even if you don't have a roller furling jib, if you have the jib halyard aft, you can always add a downhaul and lead it back along the same route a furling line would take.

Moe,

That's exactly what I did, since I don't have RF.

But, a word to the wise, you need to snake this downhaul between the hanks. Otherwise, you'll just be pulling down on that top hank, which will get jammed...

Of course, with a jib, you can just loose the sheets in an emergency... Yes, I know that's not ideal. I know the sail and the sheets will be whipping around like mad. But, this is still probably better than repeated knock downs... Also, if you cut the sheets forward of the cockpit, rather than just loose them, you should be safe back there...

I will use a PFD for any of my crew who fall overboard except the mother-in-law.
For her a "BRICK".