Head in 26m

[ALX357]

beware true random opinionated thoughts mixed with facts......The M is (obviously) available currently as new, whereas the X is getting harder to find in minty condition. IF you wait it can only get more difficult to find an X in untouched condition. Your new M will be a used boat soon enough after you have owned it awhile. Some newer boats have more wear on them from Previous Owner's abuse/neglect than a well loved and maintained older boat. Despite some extreme and wacky mods, most owners' mods are beneficial. IF you are unhappy with the X you can get out of it with less of a loss (might break even or make some profit ) than if you bought a new M and then sold it. The X will more readily forgive an unintentional grounding to varying extent. The M looks more comfortable. If you don't plan to use the galley to cook, the early M is the best party boat, with its den layout and atmosphere. Get the white hull M if you can find one, so you don't have to deal with every little scratch. The M is a faster dog of a sailboat, the X doesn't care. If you board your boat often while it is on the trailer, you will like the X access better. The M mast rotates ... Hobie Cat masts rotate ..... don't knock it 'till you've tried it. It makes the M go faster when it is rotated than when it is not rotating properly, (mast is thicker than the X ) and one X owner finds his M rig conversion makes his X go faster than other X boats. As for which feature of the M primarily makes it faster than the X, you're both right. Whichever X/M you own, you will secretly always wonder........
....SO for the price of a SanBenetoCatalinHuntJ you can have BOTH an M and an X. The more you sail either, the happier you will be.
Don't forget to check out the Mac19

[delmitch]

While I commend Moe for the numerous informative postings he has made, I can't accept his opinion that the X is better than the M simply because I haven't been able to see where he states this is sinply his opinion. He draws a great many negative conclusions regarding the M considering he has never owned one, and I assume never spent much time on one. Open debate is wonderful, especially on sailboats. I was recently at anchor and pointed out to my wife that two boats anchored to us were prime examples of how nothing in sailing is black and white. A Freedom 38 with free-standing masts and a Hunter 342 with a B&R rig. Both excelent systems achieving the same goal. I used to own a full-keel Ted Brewer designed 1970's vintage boat. I ran into a friend who said a Mac was the last boat he would have ever imagined me owning. The Mac (X or M) serves a purpose, not what everyone wants or needs. Moe, keep the discussion going, but to prospective buyers, also look at the inherent biases that Moe may include.
Mark.

[Moe]

Welcome to the forum, delmitch. You certainly aren't the first who's resorted to questioning my credibility (never owned, etc) after seemingly being unable or unwilling to intelligently debate the facts OR opinions I've presented (and I assume the reader can distiguish between them without me pointing that out). Read back through the archives and you'll find writings from M owners here who have presented logical challenges to my positions, and who I respect for it. You're welcome to join them at any time. Or not. Your call. One of the M owners I respect most here (and listen when he speaks) previously owned an X, states the differences as he sees them, and chooses not to get into this debate.

One thing's for sure, debates remain much more civil when the focus stays on the subject being debated rather than on the participants debating.

[tcoltrane]

I just recently purchased a 2005M white hull. So far I am
totally pleased. My wife and I are avid fisherman and like the
fact that the M does not have a backstay to contend with when you
hook one. I also like the feel of a sailboat hull. To me the X feels more like a powerboat. My wife didn't like the interior of the X. She felt it had
too cold of a feeling for her taste. That did it for me since I have to live
with her. I guess its just a question of personal taste. Both are great
boats and I think I could be happy with either.

Tcoltrane

[Catigale]

1. Go look at a new M and used X to decide which interior you like

2. Take the opinions of those who use the boat in a mode most like you anticipate (how many kids, how long will you be out, trailer or slip)

3 Ignore opinions not fitting (2)

4. Buy one or the other and get on the water

5 Buying anything used is less financial risk if you think you might want to bail out. That being said, I bought new in 2002 and have no regrets - mainly 'cause I know Im not getting out...

6 Poincare' and Planck's Theories show that WHITE hulls are faster due to the 'Ultraviolet Catastrophe' effect - all other posts on this topic to the contrary are Hoohey...

[Sjack]

I can understand questioning Moe's credibility. Just look at his picture. You know he has to have beedy little eyes hiding behind those dark sunglasses. And he has gray hair. You can't trust anyone with gray... uh, wait a minute - that's what I used to say 25 years ago - scratch that.

Anyway, Moe seems to have some valuable input on just about any topic that comes up - and has the time to post it. You just know this guy can't find that time to be on the water. And he seems too nice - you've got to be suspicious of someone that seems too nice. Well, enough about Moe (you've got to lay into some people every 500 posts or so - keeps them humble).

Opinions, by definition, can't be wrong. I am watching this thread eagerly to see as many different opinions as possible. So far I am not disappointed. I hope to see more.

I am looking at serious buying a Mac within the next 6 mos - 1 year. This would be my first big boat experience. I grew up a sunfish sailor. I have spent as much time as possible on other's boats - including a few years on a black hulled boat that cruised about 400 feet under the waves - it was my Uncle Sam's. I think I have enough experience to feel comfortable in owning a boat of this size and have a good idea of what I want in a boat.

It seems to me a new X would be closer to the ideal boat for my family. Unfortuantely, that does not exsist. A good used X would be that second best option, however my location - Northern KY - near Cincinnati, OH - does not offer many opportunities to explore used X's. A new M is propably going to be the route I take, but I will be keeping an eye out for other options.

Either way, I am getting a lot out of reading the opinions of others on this board (even Moe's).

[ALX357]

eBay has Mac X boats for auction/sale pretty often. sometimes two at a time, and from all over the country. Virginia is not too far to travel to see a boat from Cincy, even if it does not pan out.

The M interiors are warmer, really luxurious .... but i am working on some ideas to warm up my X....
1) add some snaps to the bottom of the upper liner, and hang some suitable and removable carpet from there down.
2) find a warmer colored stain that will color the white headliner gelcoat beige without adding build-up or brush-strokes or splotches.
3) and cover the cushions inside with a smoother cloth.
4) curtains

[Divecoz]

Another question I don't have the answer for is . . will the X sail well under just the main sail ? The M does sail quite well with just the main up . We are NEW and we have sailed both ways. . . and with just the main and it does great . . .With both the Main and the Jib . .when I thought I was in trouble there was a lot more going ? wrong? and it was happening a lot faster than it did with just the main up .
As for the rotating mast . . it SEEMS easier but I don't know for sure as I am just too NEW and as for it making it faster . . again I don't know , but if it does and this I read from this board . . it is a matter of maybe 1 or 2 mph. . . I KNOW that. . .. I . .cannot tell the difference between 5 mph and 7 or 30 and 32 . . . If I was racing would it make a difference ? My lack of skill / seamanship is going to make the difference IMHO . From everything I read. . . .. . on this board , if you have children you might well desire a pristine X over a M . I too am looking for a pristine vehicle and they are very hard to find . . but when you find them ..... a sight to behold for sure.

[Frank & Meg]

Well, isn't this charming! We haven't had a good round of "I don't really want your opinion, I want you to justify my choice" on this board for quite some time. I can't wait until they get "loopy" and start answering their own questions for us.

Hey fellas - did you know that the X isn't just a coastal cruiser? It's prime for circumnavigation! Learn more here!

[Moe]

I certainly didn't expect it to, because of the weather helm issue, but found our X sailed pretty well main only in 12-14 knot winds this past weekend. A pleasant surprise. And that was with the centerboard fully down. That's a really nice capability to have with the roller furled foresail.

OTOH, while many X owners sail genoa only, I didn't like sailing with only the working jib. The boat actually had some lee helm and required constant watch. I don't think that's a safe condition.

[Sloop John B]

Yeah, Moe. I didn't consider that unsafe condition a few times back.

When we awoke in the cove the wind was already up strong. Thing to do is change out head sails and reef the main. Changing furled head sails on the water is a bear (for me) and I'm pretty lazy to boot.

Wind will be on port quarter on the course 'home'. So, as master and commander, I'm thinking...let's try this: Keep the main down bungied tight to the boom. Unfurl the genoa, the whole sh~t, and voom--away we go.

Wow, we're just hitting the high spots.

Well, what Moe pointed out.. if I'd fallen asleep and toppled into the sea, that Mac would have just kept on truckin.

On the M X discussion, I like to stay out because I only see pictures of the M. I spend 98% of time on water under sail. Others have documented the opposite. So, if I just landed from Mars, and read all this stuff, I'd squigle over to check out the M because it appears to be a better sailer. Then I'd take a look at the X. If both boats sailed the same, I guess I'd take the X.

If the difference was diminutive, I'd go with the X. If the difference was rather substantial, I'd be back over at the M trying to figure out how to get the head and mirror and stuff out of the way.

I have the X and have become biased. It's like watching a football game. Two good teams smashing away. Who you rooting for? Got to be one or the other (if you involved by owning one or the other). Moe comes on..hooray, look at that guy go. Sneaky M gets the ball and streaks up the sideline. Holy Kasaphrash, these guys are good.

Also, think about this. The number of X guys and the number M guys. What if the X succeeded the M and the greater nucleus on this board consisted of M owners.

[ALX357]

Mac X does pretty good with just the Genoa.... ( photo shows furler raised off deck more than stock setup )
was safe to stand up because the boom is left below in cabin.

[Frank C]

A few random thoughts, mostly on Mac versus other sailboats ...

UNDER SAIL: If you care to do it, either boat will sail under one rag. The X might be better under foresail, the M under mainsail alone. Whatever ... performance under one sail isn't stellar, so I might prefer motoring that day.

MOTORSAILER: A big outboard is the defining feature of these boats. Agreeing that the Potters are great boats ... you'll never get home in a hurry. That means on the water adventures can't cover as much distance. On SF Bay the 50hp will permit a weekend visit to any destination you choose. You can sail over (Sausalito, Angel Is, Tiburon, Pier 39, pick any), then motor home. If the wind is cantankerous, motor over, then sail home. That's not feasible in a conventional sailboat.

NOVICE SAILING: It also helps define the boat for a novice ... if winds are suddenly gusting over 25 mph, I can drop the sails and safely motor home through a nasty chop. In a conventional sailboat you can motor home slowly, but in nasty conditions you might need the sails up for stability ... to a novice sailor, that's spelled C.O.N.U.N.D.R.U.M !

TRAILER-SAILING: Is a smaller trailerable quicker to launch & recover? ... I doubt it. Once you understand the process you can reduce the time to less than 2 hours, in-and-out. (Study Jeff Stagg's video and you'll be in-and-out, complete in 30 mins per day ) The Mac's rigging is as basic as any, so the time is spent to park the tow rig, retrieve the tow rig, wash-down the boat, wash down trailer & brakes, flush the outboard, etc. The majority of that time applies to every trailerable, not just the Mac.

FISHING: With a $35 mod, the X's backstay becomes adjustable and optional ... use it or not. It's not holding the mast up. It's just a nice-to-have, enhanced sail control. If you're fishing, and not sailing, just clip the backstay to any handy lifeline or shroud that's clear of your casting arc.
As stated earlier, whatever your choice just DO IT, get onto the water. Your life will improve!