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In contrast... I don't have the EZ-cleats being spoken of, however, my spring loaded genoa cars occasionally pop out of the tracks, with the detent pin set either forward or aft.

Tomfoolery wrote:

paul I wrote:more confessions.... Not only have I never used either of the winches, I never adjust the position of the genoa blocks. Maybe I should. I guess I just cant see how adjusting them across that 2' span would really do anything.

That's a valid point. The closer the clew is to the fairlead, the greater the effect fairlead postion will have on the sail, but I've always thought the tracks were rather short for the sail size. I adjust my fairleads to wind conditions, but the jury is still out as to just how much effect that actually has on the sail and/or sail balance.

Yeah, the track does not go far enough to aft so sometimes I tie off the Genoa sheet at the dock cleat! I know Highlander does not like us to do that but in light wind on a beam reach it sure does help fill up all that canvas. I don't do it in heavy wind.

As for the track going forward - well at that point I am furling the genoa and getting ready to move the sheet to the working jib tracks on top of the cabin anyways - so more track forward would probably not be of any help anyways.

I know that I NEVER run the EZ Cleats all alone - I always have the sheet coming from the turn block in front of the EZ Cleat, so that probably would protect the fairlead from getting pulled upward by the sail - I just figured everyone did it that way - I never thought to use the EZ Cleat all alone by itself - I have never used it that way - that might explain why it's never broken.

I have never had a car come off the track - that would make me mad.

BOAT wrote:Yeah, the track does not go far enough to aft so sometimes I tie off the Genoa sheet at the dock cleat! I know Highlander does not like us to do that but in light wind on a beam reach it sure does help fill up all that canvas. I don't do it in heavy wind.

Holy $hit, I am really taking a lot of lumps on this subject. I almost always tie off the Genoa sheets to the dock cleats. They are so close to the helm. Its so convenient. Can someone explain to me the downside of doing this?

paul I wrote:

BOAT wrote:Yeah, the track does not go far enough to aft so sometimes I tie off the Genoa sheet at the dock cleat! I know Highlander does not like us to do that but in light wind on a beam reach it sure does help fill up all that canvas. I don't do it in heavy wind.

Holy $hit, I am really taking a lot of lumps on this subject. I almost always tie off the Genoa sheets to the dock cleats. They are so close to the helm. Its so convenient. Can someone explain to me the downside of doing this?

No lumps from me. Using a cleat as a fairlead would allow a lot of twist in the genoa, which is probably good in heavy air with the genoa fully deployed, but passing through a stand-up block, or even the low-profile jib car, then terminating on a cleat should be fine too and still allow some twist to be taken out as usual. I prefer the winches because of their ratcheting action, so I can just pull through the winch and the cam cleat and it all holds while I reposition my hands for another pull, and because they'll hold most of the load when I pop the sheet loose from the cam cleat. No burned hands even with no gloves. But heading up into the wind to luff the genoa would allow pretty easy adjustment of the genoa sheet at the deck cleat, too. I have to try that some time, especially in heavier air prior to furling some in.

Tomfoolery wrote:

paul I wrote:

BOAT wrote:Yeah, the track does not go far enough to aft so sometimes I tie off the Genoa sheet at the dock cleat! I know Highlander does not like us to do that but in light wind on a beam reach it sure does help fill up all that canvas. I don't do it in heavy wind.

Holy $hit, I am really taking a lot of lumps on this subject. I almost always tie off the Genoa sheets to the dock cleats. They are so close to the helm. Its so convenient. Can someone explain to me the downside of doing this?

No lumps from me. Using a cleat as a fairlead would allow a lot of twist in the genoa, but passing through a stand-up block, or even the low-profile jib car, then terminating on a cleat should be fine. I prefer the winches because of their ratcheting action, so I can just pull through the winch and the cam cleat and it all holds while I reposition my hands for another pull, and because they'll hold most of the load when I pop the sheet loose from the cam cleat. No burned hands even with no gloves. But heading up into the wind to luff the genoa would allow pretty easy adjustment of the genoa sheet at the deck cleat, too. I have to try that some time, especially in heavier air prior to furling some in.

OK... good. The sheets do always pass through the standup genoa blocks attached to the track (that I never adjust). In fact I tie stopper knots in each sheet to prevent loosing them if they get away from me. The blocks are what stops them, and it makes everything nice and tidy when I furl up the genoa all the way. The sheets wrap around the furled sail and it stops furling when the sheets hit the blocks. Eezy Peezy

NiceAft wrote:The question I have is what are the conditions that Dave normally sails in?

Uh, well ... all of them.

90% single-handing.
Wide range of wind conditions, including fresh enough that any sail plan is over-powered. (Routinely over at 25 degrees)

This most recent time was with the Admiral. So I was reefed in a might 7 knot wind. Tacked and went to harden up and off it flew.

This has really only happened maybe three times in 5 years, so maybe I just need to use the allen wrench on them as part of a monthly checkup.

NiceAft wrote:Dave, can you post a photo of what your set up looks like?

Always furling Genoa. Sheets outside armpits.
EZ-cleats are near fore of fairlead. Standard blocks are near midpoint.

BOAT wrote: I know that I NEVER run the EZ Cleats all alone - I always have the sheet coming from the turn block in front of the EZ Cleat, so that probably would protect the fairlead from getting pulled upward by the sail - I just figured everyone did it that way - I never thought to use the EZ Cleat all alone by itself - I have never used it that way - that might explain why it's never broken.

I guess I could try that. It would change the angle of force on the EZ-cleat to be parallel with the fairlead, rather than some crazy twist-inducing angle. That could only help.


(To be clear, they're not *breaking*. They fly off, I reel them in, and reattach them.)

DaveC426913 wrote:

BOAT wrote: I know that I NEVER run the EZ Cleats all alone - I always have the sheet coming from the turn block in front of the EZ Cleat, so that probably would protect the fairlead from getting pulled upward by the sail - I just figured everyone did it that way - I never thought to use the EZ Cleat all alone by itself - I have never used it that way - that might explain why it's never broken.

I guess I could try that. It would change the angle of force on the EZ-cleat to be parallel with the fairlead, rather than some crazy twist-inducing angle. That could only help.


(To be clear, they're not *breaking*. They fly off, I reel them in, and reattach them.)

Okay, that makes more sense to me now - I thought they were breaking.

First off, the Allen screw needs to be tight - if the Allen screw is not tight the car can wriggle around and one side can lift a little, then wriggle the other way and lift the other side, and then the next thing you know the car is only half way on the track because the car has some flex. If you tighten up the Allen screw it forces the flex upward on the center of the metal channel and that pulls the bent parts of the car inward and tighter around the track.

Tighten up the Allen screw and the car will hold tighter to the track.

Also, do not run the sheet from the sail to the EZ Cleat - the sail sheet needs to go into a block first. I don't even run a working jib sheet into a fairlead - everything on my boat goes to some kind of turning block FIRST before it's belayed: The halyards, the Dagger board lift, the Anchor, all the sheets, the auto pilot engagement, the traveler, the Genoa Furler, EVERYTHING, even my stern anchor runs on a block in a harness that goes from the starboard to the port docking cleat. (I would run my johnson thru a block to take a pee if I could) EVERYTHING on you boat needs a block. I even put turning blocks on the rudder lifting lines.

The first time you break a rope in a storm you will stop turning lines in fairleads and properly direct them with turning blocks.

I have not had a car pop on 'boat', but I had it happen once on my old boat and it made me mad. Cleats and jam blocks are modern conveniences - even in the old days when a line went through a block eventually it was terminated at a Belaying pin - no matter how many turns a rope takes eventually it needs to be belayed somehow - and when the weather is bad it good to know your knots so you don't rely so much on mechanical devices that can fail:

My EZ cleats self destructed

Bill came out with a newer design with reinforced backing plates, which I have not tried

I just use block to the winches for the last 7 years, same reasons as Tom

G

Dave,

I believe most of us thought that your EZ-Cleats self destructed (beene's words), not disconnected.

Ray

Hi beene!

Sorry to hear that Beene. I would give you my cleats to try out if you want - the new ones seem to be pretty good.


As for how the rest of us use the EZ Cleats:
Running lines into fairleads without blocks is a cause of many problems, not just pulling cars and cleats - like jammed sheets or furler lines that knot up going into the fairleads. You guys all remember the skipper trying to un-knot a jib sheet going under the Redondo Beach Pier.



https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Isufp-6fudo



Jammed lines can be life or death in certain conditions - that's why i always carry shears in my pocket when the weather is bad. My dad had one of those marlinspike knife things, (I think they are called rigging knifes, but I can't use them; I'm no good with knives - I use shears) - and on a couple of occasions we needed it.

Tend your lines properly - it's important. Turn lines around blocks - not belaying pins and cleats - they are not designed to turn ropes.

I dropped by SeaSaw tonight and ran the sheets through the blocks before going through the EZ-cleats.