Flipping a Macgregor

[Carioca]

The white hulls flip faster.

[BOAT]

That's because the blue hulls blend in with the ocean and the wind can't see it very well.

[drams_1999]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6kKCbDw7lR4

Too bad they didn't take on water ballast at Gibraltar.

[DaveC426913]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6kKCbDw7lR4

Too bad they didn't take on water ballast at Gibraltar.

A Mac would have righted itself after that.

I wonder if Roger as any interest in scaling up to designing ocean liners...

[Highlander]

See no sweat riding the waves on a spinnaker on an
http://i844.photobucket.com/albums/ab1/ ... itled2.jpg

J

[reastmure]

Yeah my sailing experience was also in dingys with no ballast (albacore) and if you didn't monitor the main sheet closely they flipped fairly easily. I was pretty freaked when I first started sailing my M. Actually I'm still kind on the edge of my seat sailing always with the cleated off sheet in my hand ready to realease. I have gotten a little more comfortable since I installed the auto pilot. I can set the auto pilot once I've established a tack and consentrate on adjusting the main sheet to keep the heel where I want (20 to 30 deg). I'm pretty convinced the boat will round up way before it goes to 45deg but the wave thing does spook me a bit. What kind of wave are we talking about that could flip the boat?There is also quite a difference between laying the boat over (90deg and mast on water or 'knocked down') and actually flipping or turtleing.

[BOAT]

Yeah my sailing experience was also in dingys with no ballast (albacore) and if you didn't monitor the main sheet closely they flipped fairly easily. I was pretty freaked when I first started sailing my M. Actually I'm still kind on the edge of my seat sailing always with the cleated off sheet in my hand ready to realease. I have gotten a little more comfortable since I installed the auto pilot. I can set the auto pilot once I've established a tack and consentrate on adjusting the main sheet to keep the heel where I want (20 to 30 deg). I'm pretty convinced the boat will round up way before it goes to 45deg but the wave thing does spook me a bit. What kind of wave are we talking about that could flip the boat?There is also quite a difference between laying the boat over (90deg and mast on water or 'knocked down') and actually flipping or turtleing.

Interesting post.

I have a new autopilot and one of the first things I noticed after I installed it is that 'boat' heels WAY MORE now under auto pilot control - and I know why.

My boat did indeed round up if the heel angle exceeded 30 degrees bu that was because I was still holding the helm before - the rudders were not changing position much when the boat heeled over to 30 degree.

Now, under auto pilot the boat heels over to 30 degrees but does NOT round up - why? Because my auto pilot will not allow the boat to change course by even 2 degrees. I run my AP on PERFORMANCE setting which is the most precises setting and it does not allow the boat to deviate from course no matter how for over the boat heels over.

The AP will not let the boat round up - if the boat tries to steer into the wind the AP steers it right back again - really, there is no "steering back" really, because the AP is so much faster than 'boat' that it just never lets 'boat' round up in the first place - it will just hold the boat down on it's side steering a perfectly straight line course. I find it remarkable.

Anyways, it has been my new experiences with the AP that have proven to me that 'boat' can NOT be knocked down by the wind - it's just not possible. I do not stay on the main-sheet - if the boat goes over in a strong blow I do nothing now because I am not even at the helm anymore. The boat will just heel over until the wind spills out the top which is always before hitting 50 degrees - 'boat' starts spilling the wind over the top of the sails at 45 degrees and once that happens you only have a couple of degrees left before the sails collapse because 80% of the sail is behind the boat.

[Jimmyt]

I havent sailed as much as most, and certainly a lot less on my Mac than most, but I haven't found the round up point - even when half-heartedly looking for it. I would really like to know where it is, though.

The twin rudders and dagger board may push the round up point pretty far over as the low side rudder stays in the water, and as Boat says above allows continued control - particularly if a machine that won't chicken out is at the helm.

We did manage to rearrange the cabin contents and get close to the glass bottom boat effect through the side windows, but no round up. The quest for knowledge continues.

Can you knock it down? - probably. Roll it? Undoubtedly. But you will have to be out in weather that you should have avoided. Best part (and one main reason I got a Mac), it won't go to the bottom. So, you'll have something to hang onto during the force 10-12 gale with 38-40 ft waves... While asking yourself "what was I thinking"?

[Goldenist]

Thanks everyone, this online group here is amazing! I just installed the ray marine ev-100 autopilot and I'm trying to figure out how comfortable I can and should get with it. Based on everyone's posts seems like I can get pretty comfortable.

Guess I held the camera the wrong way but I just uploaded a video of sail a couple weeks back.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=yJjcwf2k__I

[sailboatmike]

Not so sure about auto pilot stopping the boat rounding up, rounding up happens when the force behind the pivot point of the boat (generally the keel) becomes greater than the force in front of it.

IMHO no amount of input from two scrawny little rudders could counter act that force unless the sails were totally out of balance and you had lee helm previously in that case the AP would be constantly be trying to point he boat upwind by rudder input during normal sailing.

We had a case the other week when we only had the 100% jib up while sailing in 20 knots, no matter what we did we couldnt point, the bow just kept being blown away to lee, no rudder input made any difference bringing he up into the wind, the rudders just stalled and we kept being pushed away because at that point the rudders had no lift and the stalled rudders dropped our speed to next to zero

[kadet]

...What kind of wave are we talking about that could flip the boat?There is also quite a difference between laying the boat over (90deg and mast on water or 'knocked down') and actually flipping or turtleing.

A breaking wave and they don't need to be that big either. A 1 metre breaking wave broadside on will hit a with about 12 tons of water. So imagine being heeled at 30 degrees when you receive a little tap on the bottom with 12 tons of water

This happened in the area I sail a few years back. I love the added drama too, 20 foot waves They are actually 3-4 metre (9-12feet) ocean swell that break over a sand bank about 6 miles off shore near Moreton island called Spitfire banks.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iGnPGxaWp4g

[Ixneigh]

The boat won't steer once the rudders are out of the water. Autopilot or no.
For a little weekend jaunt last month it was blowing hard. 20 plus. I started out with a full main and a smaller jib but normally I'd have reefed the main too. However only a few miles of the trip was to weather then the rest was down wind, where I'd want the mail full up. The boat was just on the edge of rounding up despite my best efforts, and once I got out into the chop it became nearly unmanageable. Sure I could have had a larger jib but I think that would have just made the situation worse and it would have flogged like mad at any rate. I had too much sail up and the boat was letting me know. Once I turned off wind, ok fine. Board up rudders down making good time. Specialized downwind sail? Sure IF I had running backstays and a sail that woukd hold up to that. (Mines too light) as it was I did have the boat round up once and it was a bear getting her back on course.
Another time I had the factory sail plan up, and it was breezy but not windy. There was another boat I was keeping up with, much bigger. I held onto all the sail as a squall came through, and that was the end of that. The keel boat left me with ease and I was left having to shorten sail else the boat was uncontrollable.
Note I have 350 pounds of extra ballast, the idarudders and I know when not to have the board all the way down which can contribute to heeling. Didn't make any difference. I worry about many things like ripping rigging out, the steering system failing, and the deck joint separating but turning the boat over is not one of them.

The only time I ever felt an issue is when I first got the boat. I left the ballast out and ran out seven miles offshore to just over the reefline. When I took her off plane, there were three foot ground swells that really made the boat roll dramatically. Once I let the ballast in she settled down. It was mainly for that reason I added the extra ballast. I know she won't have an issue even if I forget the water ballast. I've even sailed in light winds with no water ballast and surprisingly it wasn't much faster.

Read and follow the instruction manual. Stay away from deep water where there could be large waves. Have the right sail up I think you'll be fine. If you start to really like to sail and want the extra stability drop a few chuncks of lead in the bottom and wedge them in place with foam blocks and spray foam.
Ix

[BOAT]

I can't stay away from deep water - that's all I have over here.

We need Tomfoolery to do his cool cad drawings thingy to show the aft section of a M boat in the water at various angles to see what angle would bring the rudder out of the water.

That would be a good angle to know. (Tom makes really great pictures)

[Ixneigh]

Well what I meant was, don't go out in obviously bad weather like that video roger did. Listen to the forecast and if you get caught by a squall, take the sail down and motor head to wind until it blows over. The boat is safe but not idiot proof.

The angle isn't that important to me. I've seen the boat out of the water and can visualize the sections at various angles. I was going to make longer, wider rudder blades but now I'm leaning towards better downwind rigging. My bowsprit works good so I'll install runners, a spinnaker halyard and keep my eyes open for a cruising chut that I can have up in twenty knots. With the correct sail up at all times the rudders should be fine. Aside from those horrible brackets.
Running backs will make me feel better about carrying larger headsails in windy conditions esp down wind.
The old saw was, downwind, the man can take more the the boat can. Up wind, the boat can take more than the man can.
Ix

[BOAT]

Roger was sailing in stuff that we get right here off the coast all the time. The seas up there near the factory are even milder than down here because Rogers harbor is in the lee of Catalina Island and it cuts the swells down considerably up there but I get no such protection down here. It's not really as dangerous as you may think and the boat does just fine with the swells as long as your not trying to change sails or work on rigging or anything on deck. The swells get big like that a lot - but they are not really a danger to the boat - they just make your stomach hurt, that's all. It's the wind that can be more of a bother - but as Roger has shown at 50 mile per hour the boat is not gonna knock down. It's just not gonna happen. The boat will tip over pretty far but the sails just can't hold the wind at that angle so the boat can only get pushed over so far. We do need a drawing from Tom to show the rudder angles at 50 degrees. I think that is the critical angle on the M boat. (The critical angle on a "real" sailboat with a keel would be closer to 45 degrees - if you go over to 45 degrees on a Catalina 38 it's a good chance you will start taking on water - the kind of angles we get on the M boat would be very dangerous on a keel boat.

Really, it's you guys sailing the inland rocky roads of the waterways with the strong currents and traffic that are the brave ones. And those Florida guys that sail all those coral islands and keys and that crazy weather that will make a storm pop out of no where in mere minutes. The pacific is very big - but there is nothing out there to run into - not much there to sink your boat. Most folks die in the Pacific from thirst or falling overboard and drowning. You Atlantic guys have cold exposure and huge waves and shallow inlets and hurricane weather and all sorts of dangers that will kill a Pacific sailor pretty quick.

That's why I laugh at San Diego sailors who always complain about the MAC as an "unsafe boat" because of all the California sailors it's the ones in San Diego Bay that NEVER see a swell or a wave! Yet they worry about "The High Seas in a water ballast boat" oooh! Scarryy! - ha - what a joke. The biggest swell you will ever see in San Diego bay is the ones created by the wake of the Cruise Ships.