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I've found the DB creates too much lift and can shift one side or the other quite suddenly cause it to round up

That makes sense for a , but for a my thinking was that with 1/3 down (or less) you have a lot of horizontal surface closer to a shoal keel that could give you better control surfing down.

Piloting a Mac in a large following sea (under power or sail) is a test of seamanship and endurance

Best tip I can give is; practice !

The first time we were in a large following sea was a horrible experience. I was scared, my wife was scared, the entire world sucked. 9 years later and through many similar conditions (surfing down 6 foot waves at 11 knots) and we are both fine with it, we don’t like it – but we accept it because the experience is much more controlled now.

The old style double-ended canoe type hull design probably took these conditions much better that the modern style square stern of a Mac or a Hunter, but the new design sure makes for more room below, so a trade-off as usual.

For me, the biggest danger in a following sea are;
- broaching and laying down, and because we surf down the face of some waves over hull speed ( above 6 knots) we will swing the keel up most of the way and let the rudders (or engine) do their work (when they are able to still be in the water at the top of some waves).
- being pooped (like Boat mentioned). We’ve been in waves that have crested just as we get to the bottom of the swell and it sounds like a helicopter is coming up from behind, in most cases we get lifted just in time but there has been the odd time we had to put the cabin companionway cover in to stop water from entering below. The X's cockpit lip into the cabin is very low, only a few inches above the cockpit sole.
- pitch poling, we have never come close because even though our Mac acts like a rocket and digs into the bottoms of some swells, pulling green water over the anchor locker and up the fore deck, it has never felt like the stern is lifting.

I have learned how to anticipate our boats movement before she moves, and in this way I can steer accordingly and correct any movement before it happens and keep Windchime moving in the direction I want. The first few years it was hull, constantly over correcting, the boat almost sideways down some waves, not sure what to do with the keel and rudders, not fully ballasted because it was supposed to be a short “3 hour tour” yuk … not relaxing at all.

But piloting in these conditions is still a physical and mental effort – I must concentrate on every wave, always looking over my shoulder to avoid the big rouges, and lots of elbow grease on the wheel; 2 turns to the left, 1 turn back, 3 turns to the right, 2 more turns to the right. My wife now just sits and hangs on and calls out the big ones or flat spots to steer to. We have a sea anchor that we use for other situations, but never had it out for big following seas as I have way too much going on to add an additional worry of a dragging drogue fouling.

Our Mac’s certainly have unique characteristics that takes time to learn what to deploy, when, and how to pilot.

Wind Chime wrote: - pitch poling, we have never come close because even though our Mac acts like a rocket and digs into the bottoms of some swells, pulling green water over the anchor locker and up the fore deck, it has never felt like the stern is lifting.

We have a sea anchor that we use for other situations, but never had it out for big following seas as I have way too much going on to add an additional worry of a dragging drogue fouling.

I do not see too many sailboats pitch pole over here - it's always a power boat. Maybe one of you Power Squadron guys can explain to me why it's always the power boats and cabin cruisers that pitch pole in the waves and not the sailboats??

We had a drogue on my dads little 23 foot trailerable boat but honestly, that boat was SO heavy it was not really necessary - the MAC although just might get some improvement from one, in particular under power in a very rough sea. It's no use for me because the only place I could test it is coming into the harbor and your not allowed to drag any anchors or nets in the mouth of the harbor (because it's a hazard to navigation). People with big cabin cruisers swear by them. I know they are a must in high seas if you break your steering - they can save your boat - so we always carried one.

BOAT wrote:

Wind Chime wrote: - pitch poling, we have never come close because even though our Mac acts like a rocket and digs into the bottoms of some swells, pulling green water over the anchor locker and up the fore deck, it has never felt like the stern is lifting.

We have a sea anchor that we use for other situations, but never had it out for big following seas as I have way too much going on to add an additional worry of a dragging drogue fouling.

We had a drogue on my dads little 23 foot trailerable boat but honestly, that boat was SO heavy it was not really necessary - the MAC although just might get some improvement from one, in particular under power in a very rough sea. It's no use for me because the only place I could test it is coming into the harbor and your not allowed to drag any anchors or nets in the mouth of the harbor (because it's a hazard to navigation). People with big cabin cruisers swear by them. I know they are a must in high seas if you break your steering - they can save your boat - so we always carried one.

Hey Boat,

You are probably correct in that a drogue or sea anchor might help in some conditions. I mentioned we sometimes surf (under power) up to 11 knts and having our sea anchor out off the stern would help control our speed and direction ... I just haven't been able to muster the nerve to throw it over the side with my lovely and tolerant wife on board. Next time I'm in the sh~t by myself - Ill give it a go.

PS
- the sea anchor does work well off the bow cleats of our X, keeps her pointed into the wave and wind under drift.

Wind Chime wrote:PS
- the sea anchor does work well off the bow cleats of our X, keeps her pointed into the wave and wind under drift.

Just because I know someone is going to mention it, statistically it is better to deploy off the stern (go figure ).

I've also kept a drogue in the emergency bag but never deployed. I really should rig a dedicated bridal for it so I will be more likely to actually deploy it rather than get by without it.

yukonbob wrote:

Wind Chime wrote:PS
- the sea anchor does work well off the bow cleats of our X, keeps her pointed into the wave and wind under drift.

Just because I know someone is going to mention it, statically it is better to deploy off the stern (go figure ).

I've also kept a drogue in the emergency bag but never deployed. I really should rig a dedicated bridal for it so I will be more likely to actually deploy it rather than get by without it.

Ya - I wonder if those stats include open walk-though stern transoms like or Mac's? Probably stats are of typical blue water type closed sterns, but maybe not.

I've deployed ours off the bow a couple of times when heave-too was not the best option and the sea-anchor kept us to the wind rather than a-beam sea ... although we hobby- horsed a bit.

yukonbob wrote:

Wind Chime wrote:PS
keeps her pointed into the wave and wind under drift.

Just because I know someone is going to mention it, statically it is better to deploy off the stern (go figure ).

WC is right - if you are stuck in a bad storm for a long time chances are good you will be too tired and cold to helm the boat - in times when you go down below and slam the hatches to ride out something very bad outside it is best to throw the storm anchor off the BOW, not the stern.

Yup drifting with a sea anchor off the stern has a higher rate of survivability although not by much. I was just as surprised.

*Edit

The idea being that bow into the wind/waves allows the boat to surf down the wave and catch up to your anchor, slackening your line = shock loading, or shearing off broadside to the next wave. Also most boats have more volume in the stern = more floatation, and helps reduce surfing down the face of the wave. It goes against intuition but thats the official recommendation by most manufacturers and the USCG. This all depends on the boat and method being used of course.

I have found it easiest in following seas to just match the speed of the waves. I typically try to ride on the back of the wave without having to do any surfing down the face.

If my motor can't keep up with the wave's speed, I usually do what Catigale suggests whether motoring or sailing.

More reason to move up to the Suzuki 90

Catigale wrote:These are light boats and are easily moved by waves, unlike keel boats

The easiest solution is to sail a broad reach with the seas 30-45 degrees astern and tack to your destination - that will give the helm a chance to top the larger waves and keep the boat more even.

Concur that using the motor to match the wave speed is by far the best way to handle a following sea--especially if you're coming into a harbor like Oceanside.

I know the USCG recommends setting drogues astern, but those recommendations were made in the 1980s, before flat, open transoms were common. The stern's primary advantage is its much higher buoyancy, which in a traditional boat works fine.

The disadvantages, however, are numerous:
1. Wind directly into the companion way. This is miserable in a storm.
2. Pooping if the sees run higher than your transom. Also miserable, and makes it dangerous to be in the cockpit.
3. Attendant flooding through the companionway. This is potentially deadly.

#3 may very well be a deal killer for very high seas in certain types of boats. An M would do better than an X because of it's high bridge-deck, but neither will do as well as the older closed-transom boats.

If you're in seas that constantly wash over the transom, you will get flooding that you will likely be unable to keep up with. Furthermore, if you've already deployed your drogue astern, and the seas worsen, you'll be unable to re-deploy it off the bow (and vice versa).

The disadvantages of deploying off the bow are that the drogue will pull the bow down, and you will be washed over routinely. If your boat leaks, this is going to be miserable, but it will flood a lot slower than being pooped by the stern and taking in water through the companionway.

If you have a drogue, you should test both stern bridled and bow bridled, and make your own determination as to which is better. It's a tough call in a tough situation. For both of my boats, I'm fairly convinced that I'm better off with a drogue deployed off the bow rather than the stern, but I've not tested this theory because I lack both storms and a drogue.

Matt

I thought thats what wash boards were for, to stop water coming into the cabin, thats one thats high on my agenda for many reasons is to make a two part wash board so you can have the bottom part in at least if the seas start running from astern.

One of the improvements made on the M is the companionway opening is much higher than on an X, by about a foot or so (like a built-in washboard) making a flooded cabin less likely. There is also an insert that comes with the Dowsar full enclosure that fills the space below the helm seat at the transom that would prevent pooping over the transom. It is of Sunbrella that is held securely by stud-type twist fasteners. That part would be a fairly easy stand-alone DIY project.

I have no problem getting into 'boat' with the companionway hatch in place - I can step over it. I have sailed that way many times on 'boat'. The cockpit will get swamped but no water gets into the cabin - it works real good. If your legs are not long enough to step over the hatch just glue a step on the inside of the hatch.

A sea anchor (drogue) is great off the stern if you are still driving the boat. If you are no longer driving the boat and are inside I think the anchor is better on the bow. The anchor is used very commonly on power boats that are in high sea and you can go on you tube and see fisherman in big trawlers stabilizing their boats steering very effectively by using a stern anchor with a long bridle.

I can't use one going into the harbor because sea anchors are prohibited within harbors so I steer through it. Sometime a rouge wave will just pop up out of nowhere and break over the transom if your too close to the northern jetty and throw the stern into the air - at that point your rudders are out of the water anyways so all you can do is wait till you get to the bottom of the swell. If you end up broadside just point back up into the next oncoming wave until you get turned back around. I have done that a couple times. Do it like you did when you were a kid on your surfboard, don't fight it. If you get pushed broadside just go ahead and turn the rest of the way around so your bow is into the wave and wait for your opportunity to get turned back the right way. Too many power boats pitch-pole and capsize because they waste time trying to get turned back on course at the bottom of a wave instead of turning back into the waves. One step back and two forward is safer.

On the really really big stuff (20-30 food breaking seas) you use that same method and zig zag to make headway. Go up the wave, turn around and follow the wave on it's back as it passes, then turn back up the next wave. It's exhausting - sooner or later you will need to throw the anchor off the bow and go to bed and just pray. That's what usually happens. Your odds of surviving a really good with a bow anchor and tight boat. You WILL lose your rigging.

http://yachtphotography.photoshelter.co ... TWOujD5.g0

There are some really nice small 25 foot keel boats that can surf without loosing any control at all right down the face of the steepest waves. They usually have very wide rounded keels and have their rudders on the back of the keel. Those boats are great in really high seas. The MAC daggerboard is just too narrow to hold a course in that kind of turbulence.

This makes a nice feature as u can split into two , the bottom half top edge is re-enforced with two alum flat bars so as u can sit there & lean against them with out any worry of falling back inside the cabin




J

It is said (and documented) that a boat on a sea anchor deployed from the bow will shear (wander) much worse than at anchor. Considering the amount of shearing these boats experience on the hook I can't imagine what they'd do one bow deployed sea anchor in a blow. I've been reading more into drogues and sea anchors and all signs point to a series drogue. The more I read into it the more I've been convinced that the stern is the way to go.