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Re: SAFETY TIP: properly label your heel-meter!
Posted: Sun Jun 09, 2013 7:35 pm
by Johnacuda
BOAT wrote:Another thing about the MAC besides heeling moment: One of the first things I figured out about the MAC was that if you have one of these it's totally useless:
If your sailing a MAC M, this thing belongs in the trash in my opinion. I have always used them on all kinds of boats but on the MAC it's nothing more than a distraction.
The problem is (I learned within two outings) is that the MAC is SO light it has way more acceleration than most boats it's size. On most boats you wait and wait and wait as wind blows harder for the boat to start to heel and move.
Not on the MAC M
My MAC and the one I tested with Mike too, both had quick acceleration in light wind - the boats QUICKLY overtake the actual wind angle with the APPARENT wind angle. It you really want to tune the MAC use APPARENT WIND not actual wind. I find that the MAC spends more time using the APPARENT wind than is does using the actual wind. If I tune to APPARENT wind, the boat holds course and speed as long as the wind does. If the wind dies, the boat gets nailed with the ACTUAL wind which is always not quite as high as the APPARENT wind and the sails become broadside to the air, and the boat naturally starts to turn away from the wind. If you tune the MAC sails to the ACTUAL wind you will always be pointing too high.
That is what I found. The results would be different if your boat is very heavy.
One of the best and most simple ways to see APPARENT wind is to use tale tells on the outer shrouds (as high as you can put them standing on your tippy toes on the deck). I ran both wind indications for several outings and it did not take me long at all to realize the old reliable Windex was just a useless distraction when trying to tune the sails on a MAC.
Watching the apparent wind will also give you clues about why the heel angle indicator is saying what it's saying and by watching the apparent wind indications (tale tells and sail yarn) you will be able to predict the heel angle before the boat even gets there and you will spend a LOT less time adjusting your mainsheet. Set it and forget it.
Waiting for my new 150% to come in from Judy B., this is the first year I'm spending much time with the 100% jib flying. This jib is original but unused. Combined with using the cabin-top tracks, I'm sailing much closer to the wind than I thought the
was able to. So much so, that The jib is out-sailing the main. Looks like I'm going to have to place that order as soon as this bill drops.
Re: SAFETY TIP: properly label your heel-meter!
Posted: Sun Jun 09, 2013 8:41 pm
by CampCook
I never pretend to be any sort of awesome sailor BUT i have to say, I find the windex indicator a useful tool. However, on my M, I got rid of that trailing flag and just use the pointer relative to the sail. Otherwise, the rotating mast confuses the picture. The pointer points in the direction of the combined relative wind. I use this for the coarse adjustment and then fine tune withe the tell tales. But, then again, what ever works for you.
Re: SAFETY TIP: properly label your heel-meter!
Posted: Sun Jun 09, 2013 9:47 pm
by Phil M
I did that as well, ditched the trailing flags, but also find the wind indicator, or masthead fly, a useful instrument. Sitting on top of the mast, you would think it gives a better indicator of the wind than a telltale hung from a shroud. To each his own, I guess.
Re: SAFETY TIP: properly label your heel-meter!
Posted: Wed Jun 19, 2013 8:50 pm
by DaveC426913
BOAT wrote:Another thing about the MAC besides heeling moment: One of the first things I figured out about the MAC was that if you have one of these it's totally useless:
If your sailing a MAC M, this thing belongs in the trash in my opinion. I have always used them on all kinds of boats but on the MAC it's nothing more than a distraction.
The problem is (I learned within two outings) is that the MAC is SO light it has way more acceleration than most boats it's size. On most boats you wait and wait and wait as wind blows harder for the boat to start to heel and move.
Not on the MAC M
My MAC and the one I tested with Mike too, both had quick acceleration in light wind - the boats QUICKLY overtake the actual wind angle with the APPARENT wind angle. It you really want to tune the MAC use APPARENT WIND not actual wind. I find that the MAC spends more time using the APPARENT wind than is does using the actual wind. If I tune to APPARENT wind, the boat holds course and speed as long as the wind does. If the wind dies, the boat gets nailed with the ACTUAL wind which is always not quite as high as the APPARENT wind and the sails become broadside to the air, and the boat naturally starts to turn away from the wind. If you tune the MAC sails to the ACTUAL wind you will always be pointing too high.
That is what I found. The results would be different if your boat is very heavy.
One of the best and most simple ways to see APPARENT wind is to use tale tells on the outer shrouds (as high as you can put them standing on your tippy toes on the deck). I ran both wind indications for several outings and it did not take me long at all to realize the old reliable Windex was just a useless distraction when trying to tune the sails on a MAC.
Watching the apparent wind will also give you clues about why the heel angle indicator is saying what it's saying and by watching the apparent wind indications (tale tells and sail yarn) you will be able to predict the heel angle before the boat even gets there and you will spend a LOT less time adjusting your mainsheet. Set it and forget it.
I'm afraid I don't follow. Why would the masthead windvane point anywhere other than the apparent wind?
I use my masthead vane a lot, though I do not have those flags (not even sure what they're for. I guess they bracket the no-sail zone?)
Re: SAFETY TIP: properly label your heel-meter!
Posted: Wed Jun 19, 2013 9:58 pm
by BOAT
Sorry, I was not clear - the trailing flags are supposed to be indicators that you can use to get your coarse on the correct tack as you increase speed and change from actual wind to apparent wind. I found the whole windex assembly a total distraction because on all the other boats I sailed I used the windex ALWAYS.
Can't do that on the Mac!!! The darn Windex is rotating!! The tack indicators are all messed up!
I NEED to see the wind in relation to my sails and also in relation to the beam and the middle of the boat - it's the only way I can fly. (My dad never used any wind indicators AT ALL), but in races I was a little bit faster than him and I think that was because I watched the wind carefully in relation to some fixed point on the boat, and I also watched the water to look for patches of blue or green or ripples that would give away areas where the wind was blowing harder. You can sail a little out of your way to catch faster wind and beat everyone even though you went farther to do it.
Re: SAFETY TIP: properly label your heel-meter!
Posted: Thu Jun 20, 2013 5:07 am
by Tomfoolery
BOAT wrote:Can't do that on the Mac!!! The darn Windex is rotating!! The tack indicators are all messed up!
Ah yes, the rotating mast, which rotates the little 'flags' along with it. I wasn't getting what you were saying either, until I realized that you have a rotating mast.
I use my windex all the time. It's just something I got in the habit with when I first started, and it's ingrained now. I even put a window in my bimini so I can see it while sailing with the bimini up.
But the
boats are problematic there. Someone here came up with a gizmo, I think, to allow the use of an apparent wind direction indicator of some sort on an
, presumably electronic. The reference would have to be held to the centerline of the boat somehow. Perhaps someone remembers it, or more importantly, where to find it.
Re: SAFETY TIP: properly label your heel-meter!
Posted: Thu Jun 20, 2013 5:22 am
by Hammer24
tkanzler wrote:But the
boats are problematic there. Someone here came up with a gizmo, I think, to allow the use of an apparent wind direction indicator of some sort on an
, presumably electronic. The reference would have to be held to the centerline of the boat somehow. Perhaps someone remembers it, or more importantly, where to find it.
Do you mean this one?
http://www.flyorsail.com/Wind_Instruments.html
Re: SAFETY TIP: properly label your heel-meter!
Posted: Thu Jun 20, 2013 5:30 am
by Tomfoolery
I haven't seen that web site before, but I remember (perhaps incorrectly) that a member here who also has an aeronautical background was developing such an instrument, so that may be it.
Re: SAFETY TIP: properly label your heel-meter!
Posted: Thu Jun 20, 2013 5:40 am
by robbarnes1965
I find shroud telltales the most useful. An extra benefit is not having to hurt your neck looking up - especially when the bimini is up.
http://www.davisnet.com/marine/products ... ?grp=m23-1
I have also used strips cut out of plastic shopping bags ties to the shrouds on rented boats. The work just as well.
Re: SAFETY TIP: properly label your heel-meter!
Posted: Thu Jun 20, 2013 6:35 am
by Bill at BOATS 4 SAIL
I use cassette tape for the tell-tails, on the shrouds.
Jimmy Buffet (WWJD) tapes seem to work best. Heavy metal, not so good.
Re: SAFETY TIP: properly label your heel-meter!
Posted: Thu Jun 20, 2013 7:00 am
by BOAT
robarns1965 has pictures of the Davis tale tells - I LOVE those things and in the 70's we used them all the time.
Now I can't find them - I have looked high and low - I even asked the guy at Minny's in Newport if he had seen any and he said not for a long long time.
I sure wish I could find some of those.
The Jimmy Buffet Son of a Son of a Sailor tape works good if you can get the 8 track version.
The advantage of Jimmy Buffet tape or tale tells or shopping bags on the shrouds is that they also change from limpy to straight as the wind changes speed, (windex can't do that) But I must admit the windex was my favorite for decades.
Re: SAFETY TIP: properly label your heel-meter!
Posted: Thu Jun 20, 2013 12:32 pm
by Sea Wind
An extra benefit is not having to hurt your neck looking up - especially when the bimini is up.
i second that. I used to have these:
http://www.defender.com/product.jsp?pat ... 1&id=74383
they are great but got messed up because I did not remove them while towing for a long trip.
Now I am back to yarn in the shrouds and lifelines. Thanks to the wife there is an endless supply of yarn at home.
Re: SAFETY TIP: properly label your heel-meter!
Posted: Thu Jun 20, 2013 12:36 pm
by Tomfoolery
BOAT wrote:robarns1965 has pictures of the Davis tale tells - I LOVE those things and in the 70's we used them all the time.
Now I can't find them - I have looked high and low - I even asked the guy at Minny's in Newport if he had seen any and he said not for a long long time.
I sure wish I could find some of those.
These?
http://www.defender.com/product.jsp?pat ... 1&id=74112
Re: SAFETY TIP: properly label your heel-meter!
Posted: Thu Jun 20, 2013 12:45 pm
by BOAT
Those are the ones that are made to stick on your sail - the factory already has those sewn into my sail - they are great and I use them A LOT -
I have resorted to using the same product on the stays.
Re: SAFETY TIP: properly label your heel-meter!
Posted: Thu Jun 20, 2013 1:12 pm
by Tomfoolery
I found this listing of the Davis shroud tell-tales, but there's no price. The others on the page, including shroud tell-tales made by some other company, do have a price, and are available.
It would seem Davis doesn't make them any more.
http://www.apsltd.com/c-4713-telltalesshrouds.aspx
Now that you mention it, I do remember having them on my Aquarius.
