MacGregorSailors.com

Ever consider that the coolers and lifejackets and other floaty things can be counted as replacements for a bit of foam removed?

Also, did you insure your boat as one having features making it unsinkable? I do not remember a "Titanic" clause as part of my policy. Also, I do not believe Macgregor states as unsinkable in operating configuration since demo had no motor. I insured a boat and boats can sink.

Do not get me wrong, I have only removed a bit of the foam as needed to install accesories and open up the area above the dinette seat (if this highest point in the boat goes underwater, the boat is underwater). I do not plan to strip my boat of floatation.

I use my boat offshore Fishing - I love the Floatation if something goes really bad like a rouge wave (please god no thank you) I find it extremely comforting to know i can bob like a cork, I also love that if the engine dies I can sail, for storage hang some net Hammocks -Have you thought about resale? I for 1 would be like WHY Did they Gut the Foam? and then make a Low ball offer. Anything that can be held against you - will be held against you in a resale scenario (Fact)

I have opened up this area removed the floation so as to be able to install my 4ft bowsprit & installed & installed access hatches & then replaced the floation when done
http://i235.photobucket.com/albums/ee20 ... 010005.jpg

http://i235.photobucket.com/albums/ee20 ... 010011.jpg

http://i235.photobucket.com/albums/ee20 ... 010007.jpg

J

Again, I'll say my bit... don't EVER remove foam from the boat. It's there for your safety and the safety of all who sail with you. Plus, if you do take it out and you ever re-sell the boat, your liability very likely continues... so if someone long after you've sold it (and maybe even several sellers down the line) should have an incident where there's loss of life due to lack of flotation, there's nothing preventing the folks from coming back and suing you for having made the boat unsafe. And trust me, even full, written disclosure won't save you... you'll be personally liable, and I sincerely doubt your home owner's insurance is gonna cover you.

It's just a bad idea, folks. Lives are not exchangeable for storage space. Buy a Rubbermaid bin and toss it in the aft berth.

How do I know how much foam was in my boat in the beginning ? After reading the article on the sinking of the Venture of Newport I put up exactly this question. Does anybody with a 26 "Classic" have the answer ?

http://www.macgregorsailors.com/forum/v ... 10&t=21060

This is all a lot of hogwash. no boat over 25 feet has any requirement for ANY kind of flotation whatsoever, along with any statement of a horsepower rating or number of passengers.There is not a reputable lawyer out there that would even consider taking your case.Why doesnt Catalina,Hunter,Beneteau,Island Packet, Or any of the others come with any flotation?? If you feel threatened pyhsically by having to get wet then buy all means leave your flotation in place, personally I just carry insurance so i can just get a new boat.

I think kmclemore may have a point, if we assume that insurance premiums are based on total risk assessments.
In case of the Mac, the risk assessment would assume a reduced probability of total loss (sinking) due to the inherent floatation giving buoyancy when swamped. Removing this inherent buoyancy will change the overall risk assessment and could well impact future insurance or legal claims

Obelix

I'm with Ray on this. The much larger sailboats have storage in every nook and cranny, yet the smaller Mac is supposed to do without? I think not.
I take into consideration the remote possibility that I will have a boating accident, even more remote that my boat will sink, and now add on the possibility of a claim against me. Hmmm. If that scares me, perhaps I should stay home and hide under the bed.

raycarlson wrote:This is all a lot of hogwash. no boat over 25 feet has any requirement for ANY kind of flotation whatsoever, along with any statement of a horsepower rating or number of passengers.There is not a reputable lawyer out there that would even consider taking your case.Why doesnt Catalina,Hunter,Beneteau,Island Packet, Or any of the others come with any flotation?? If you feel threatened pyhsically by having to get wet then buy all means leave your flotation in place, personally I just carry insurance so i can just get a new boat.

Ray, it's not hogwash. If you take a boat which is expected to have a certain level of flotation, and then you disable that flotation (i.e. modifying the original manufacturer's specifications), and someone suffers an injury and/or property loss because of that action, you would then be liable for damages. And your insurance will not back you up, either, since you took an overt act to create a danger. The insurance company expects the subscriber to act in a 'reasonable' manner and with 'good intent'... purposely endangering lives isn't 'reasonable' and they will bail on you faster than a scalded mongoose.

The point is not whether a Mac has more or less flotation than another boat. The point is that you've modified the manufacturer's original specifications for the vessel and based upon those standard specifications there's an expected performance (i.e. it floats when flooded) that you have modified/disabled. Liability for any loss incurred which can reasonably (and sometimes even unreasonably, given recent product liability judgements) be attributed to that modification will fall squarely upon your shoulders.

And, as noted, that modification persists through subsequent owners, and as the person who made the alteration you are *still* liable long after another owner has possession of the vessel. So, it's not all about just things you can control... you have to worry about what some bozo in the future will do with the boat.

Trust me on this. If not, call your own lawyer and see what he/she says. But I would suggest you don't call it 'hogwash' until you do, since you are likely to be unpleasantly surprised by their evaluation.

There is not a reputable lawyer out there that would even consider taking your case

Unfortunately there are tons of others who will.....

Catigale wrote:

There is not a reputable lawyer out there that would even consider taking your case

Unfortunately there are tons of others who will.....

Oh, absolutely. Defense lawyers will take virtually any case - it's all just cash for hours, they're not working on a 'get-paid-if-you-win' basis... they get paid win or lose, and the longer it drags on, the more you pay. Nice racket. But I pretty much guarantee you're gonna lose - either you'll lose outright, or you'll lose by being buried in legal fees.

kmclemore wrote:The point is that you've modified the manufacturer's original specifications for the vessel and based upon those standard specifications there's an expected performance (i.e. it floats when flooded) that you have modified/disabled. Liability for any loss incurred which can reasonably (and sometimes even unreasonably, given recent product liability judgements) be attributed to that modification will fall squarely upon your shoulders.

This is of course true. Lawyers do this all the time and will chew you up in court. Reason enough to not remove flotation.

Makes one think what other mods might jeopardize an owner in an insurance claim.
Putting a 70 or 90hp motor on the back? Roger says 60 tops.
Adding extra weight to the dagger board?
Adding a solar vent?
Adding a musclehead main?
Stern seats?
Autoventing ballast?
And of course there are the many debated running/anchor light mods.

There are a slew of mods that could potentially get many of us in trouble. A decent shark, erm, attorney could argue that these mods contributed to an accident or exacerbated it.
The story of the sinking Venture of Newport in the other thread does give pause to how quickly things can go bad. More reason to have safety equipment quickly available regardless of lawyers and insurance companies. What I've learned is I don't want to need to file a claim.

Interesting discussion but there is a common assumption here that the manufacturer has certified that this boat will float when flooded. The demonstration in the brochure shows a boat that has been flooded but no indication if this boat is at max weight or if it even has a motor. This is a sales pitch, not a certified feature that can be quantified/prosecuted/defended. Where is the manufacturer's claim that this boat will float when fully equipped (with motor, fuel, people, anchor, and other items reasonably found on these boats)? Where is the manufacturer's caution that removal of any foam may lead to loss of life (may be there but I have not seen it)?

Yes, lawyers can sue on just about anything - right or wrong. But to say that making any changes on any manufactured product can lead to litigation is way too alarmist for reasonable society. Generally, the prosecution needs to show intential negligence - is installing a radio above the dinette a negligent act?

I advise that if you take out a cubic foot of foam (and I have saved all foam I have removed so I can measure), show that you have preserved the buoyancy with other items on board - crab trap buoys, empty jugs in storage compartments, extra life preservers, coolers, heck, I can even make a case for the porta potty (one of the liquid tanks is always empty). Be reasonable about where and why you remove foam - taking out major amounts in the bow and stern can have a real effect, taking out a minor amount to install accessories or (my favorite) taking out foam at the top of the daggerboard will not make any changes that would ever cause a substantial change in the way the flooded boats floats (or sinks slowly).

There are clear statements in the 26M user manual to the ability of staying afloat when swamped, most likely enough for some lawyer to work with.

26M-User Manual, page 3
“DO NOT REMOVE ANY OF THE FOAM FLOTATION BLOCKS. Loss of any of the foam could seriously impair the ability of the boat to stay afloat if damaged.
IF THE CABIN OF THE BOAT IS ENTIRELY FILLED WITH WATER, AND THE BOAT IS DEPENDING ON THE FOAM FLOTATION TO KEEP IT AFLOAT, IT WILL BE VERY UNSTABLE AND MAY TURN UPSIDE DOWN.”

Still, what kind of legal challenge are you thinking of defending against? What is the history of other Mac or similar type owners being sued about removal of foam blocks? Is there any precident here or are we all worrying about the sky falling?

If you have an accidient that bad, is removal of a couple of foam blocks the worst thing you did to contribute to the end result?

Removal of foam COULD result in the boat not floating (again, no figures on how much the floatation provides so one could make a direct correlation on if removal actually made a difference) - so can adding a few heavy anchors instead of the lightweight one the factory sales guys put on the boat (yeah, mine is OK for digging in the sand when I beach and not much else). Anchors are a safety accessory but in this case not all that helpful.

If this is just a wild out in left field just in case issue, buy an umbrella insurance policy and you can sleep better knowing you can remove a couple of foam blocks and even the tags off your matress