Offshore Mac sailing

[Kittiwake]

Bill you and Gater could give lessons on sailing Vancouver Island's hot spots!
But I am worried that now we have to swear everyone on this site to secrecy and then delete this thread: you have given away the two best saltwater sailing grounds off the Island, and the key aspects of getting there, all in one short note.

The Broughton Archipelago is even more extensive than the Broken Group; and allows one to play about in the open Queen Charlotte Strait when the weather is good. Those in the know, like you, advise against taking the road to Bamfield while towing! I have never tried it. But as you say, Port Alberni has several launch sites - including one with free parking - and from there it is a nice sail down to Barkley Sound. An alternative I have not tried is trailering to Uclulet (good paved road). Recently we trailered to Tofino and 'did' Clayoquot Sound: to get from there to Barkley Sound would involve a 35-mile dash south down the exposed-and-without-hiding-places west coast of Pacific Rim Park ("do you feel lucky?" springs to mind).

Gees Gater, that Nitinat Narrows is one mean-looking gauntlet: I'll watch you from the shore.

As to the sculling oar ... I happened last year to read a little thread by Larry Pardey who (with his wife, Lin) is well known for offshore travels in modest-size, heavy, full-keel sailboats … without a motor. He was writing that people tend to ignore the usefulness of a single stern sculling oar; and that his small wife could effectively manoeuver their multi-ton boat with one. Well I figured if they could push a 10,000 pound boat with one, I could push a Mac. But the oar would have to be long. So, having some Scottish blood, I googled ‘making a sculling oar’. Turns out there are lots of types and instructions, but as usual I went for ‘simple’. I just took a solid piece of (probably) fir 2”x2”x10’. Then I cut an 18” slot ½” wide in one end and epoxied lengthwise into the slot a ½”x6”x3’ fir plank. Sanded the thing and painted it with acrylic mahogany stain. I don’t know how effective it would be for sculling, but it would make a fair weapon. I figure in a pinch I would just twist a double strand of mooring rope between the rail-seat supports (above the engine cowling) and stuff the oar between the twisted strands so I could use it from the area of the steering wheel. Having gone to all the trouble of making one, I notice you can buy similar (but less mean-looking) long oars quite inexpensively. Since you mention it Bill, I just ‘searched’ this site, and people have considered oars on the Mac - with actual experience apparently limited to using them off one or both sides (ie. paddling/rowing). But surely someone must have tried the old fishing dory approach of using just one oar to scull off the stern.

Kittiwake

[mastreb]

I've done a number of crossings from Long Beach to Catalina without incident in full keel sailboats. Typically late summer, the seas are 1' to 2' max, and generally quieter than that. People do it all day every day, even though the channel is 2000' deep at its minimum.

So when we got the Mac in February, I got all excited to go to Catalina. With the big motor, I figured we could put in at Dana Point for a change and use the motor to shorten the trip. So we set out one day in late March, having checked the weather (perfect) but not the seas. Sails were not yet unfurled as I was going to get well out to sea before doing some sailing.

Twenty minutes out, we were in 6' to 8' swells. These are the size that, when standing at the helm, your boat is between two waves that you cannot see beyond. Probably I should have kept the main up for stability, but I didn't realize that at the time and dropped all sail, firing up the motor. The Mac bobbed like a cork between these seas, frequently rounding up with the tilt-angle got to high (which was a very obvious safety measure in these seas.

The Admiral was stoic but worried. I was having a great time personally, but the kids were in a state of abject terror. My nine-year-old especially was in hysterics. The ETEC chuffed along happily at 7 knots, broaching the facing waves and handling the more-than-occasional prop ventilation with no complaints. I pulled the boards up, which eliminated the worst of the tipping by allowing the boat to float atop the waves. I also went topside to get a flying halyard that had come loose and was wrapping itself about the stays. I recommend never doing that--it was really stupid on my part, but I hadn't yet given up on sailing to Catalina.

After an hour of that, we decided to turn around and go back to Dana. Going with the seas, I kept the throttle at about six knots which allowed us to surf a single wave trough most of the way. The following seas were a little scary, but they were so much larger than the boat that it was really just a matter of throttling up and down to stay in the sweet spot. Getting back took half the time that going out took. We put back onto the trailer in Dana Point, drove down to Oceanside (half hour south), put back in at Oceanside Harbor, and camped on the boat pretending we were farther from home than we were.

The boat will clearly handle any kind of weather, but you may not be able to make any kind of way. When you're beyond your skills, the safe thing to do is drop sail, pull boards up, be certain you're ballasted, cut the motor, batten down the hatches, and wait it out. The weather will change. The Mac is not going to let you down, nor is there any chance it will overturn when ballasted with everyone below-decks in any kind of seas. With boards up, even being broadsided by a large wave results in nothing more than a big roll and a lot of side-slipping. Batten down the hatches, watch your GPS chart-plotter from inside the cabin and wait it out.

We keep plenty of water and food on-board for just this circumstance. We could probably wait out a week's worth of weather off-shore if we had to.

[Mac26Mpaul]

Roger Macgregors video of the Mac sailing in 50 knot gusts is disputed and made fun of all over the internet. Actually it is likely quite factual. What all the people who want to bash that video dont get is that the wind would have been at least 20 percent higher at the top of the Mac 65s mast where the wind was being measured. Then we all know that gusts can be up to 40 percent higher than the wind. What that means is that the Mac was likely sailing in about 25 knots in that vid and that sea was clearly about a Force 6 which which matches perfectly. I think it would be a ball to go out in that (without my family and on someone elses Mac LOL) , but nothing bigger thanks!!!

I would respectfully disagree with you Mastreb when you say the Mac can handle any kind of weather and its a matter of battering down the hatches and waiting it out. Blue water boats are built much much much stronger to be able to live though washing machine conditions, and there are many instances of them not making it. Imagine the Mac out in a Force 12 and falling down the side of a 30 foot wave or two. I dont think any trailer sailers would live through this and they are simply not designed to be anywhere near it! There are some big seas out there. In the 98 Sydney to Hobart yacht race (many yachts and lives lost), they experienced 70 metre swells (thats about 230 foot or so) with probably the top 30 foot or so of some of them breaking! I have seen 10 metres from a Destoyer and it is impossible to describe so I simply cannot imagine what 70 is like (or how bloody scary it would be)!

No Mac would live though that Its windows would all pop, the hatches would be blown out and the hull would end up breaking its back....

[Gater Dunn]

Sorry Kittywake
no lessons from me I've only had my mac for one year with about 22 hrs of sailing / motoring.
the video was one I found on youtube yesterday after looking at friends video of nitnat kite surfing event 2011.
but a Broken group get to gether is something I would consider.

[mastreb]

I would respectfully disagree with you Mastreb when you say the Mac can handle any kind of weather and its a matter of battering down the hatches and waiting it out. Blue water boats are built much much much stronger to be able to live though washing machine conditions, and there are many instances of them not making it. Imagine the Mac out in a Force 12 and falling down the side of a 30 foot wave or two. I dont think any trailer sailers would live through this and they are simply not designed to be anywhere near it! There are some big seas out there. In the 98 Sydney to Hobart yacht race (many yachts and lives lost), they experienced 70 metre swells (thats about 230 foot or so) with probably the top 30 foot or so of some of them breaking! I have seen 10 metres from a Destoyer and it is impossible to describe so I simply cannot imagine what 70 is like (or how bloody scary it would be)!

No Mac would live though that Its windows would all pop, the hatches would be blown out and the hull would end up breaking its back....

Well, this is a discussion. Frankly, there's no "back" to break--this boat doesn't have a keel, its monocoque construction. You aren't going to break it open with wave pressure. Force against the lexan windows, I can't speak to--I just don't have any idea what the seals can withstand. But the cockpits of F-16s are made out of lexan and they seem to do Mach 2 just fine. It does seem like a weak point, but there's zero data to determine how it would fare in a storm because this hasn't happened yet.

With boards up, a 30' wave is not actually going to cause a mac to capsize, the hull will surf that and any other wave. In this condition, a Mac is going to behave more like a cruise ship life boat than a sailboat--there's no keel or board to catch the water, it just bobs around like a cork. I'm not going to claim that the 6' waves I was in were anything like a hurricane (which I have ridden through for three weeks on CG-22) but I'd rather be on a Mac than in ANY fixed keel boat in a storm.

I don't know anything really about the conditions that occurred in the Hobart race tragedy, and I'm not going to dismiss the memory of the sailors who died in it in a trivial forum post, but what I will say is that I cannot imagine a sailboat I'd rather ride a storm out in than a Mac. Even if a mac somehow did a full rotation, the boat would have to come to rest between 117 and 243 degrees inverted to remain inverted if it were ballasted (which could happen) but it would invert with air pressure in the hull and frankly any tossing at all would again upright it. It simply would not stay inverted in a storm. It may well roll, and that would definitely freak me out, but it will right and it will float, and that's what causes survival.

Any sailboat can be rolled over to 180 degrees and not right in a storm of unlimited power. Break the keel off of a typical sailboat and you can stick a fork in survival. Not the case with a Mac. I just don't see a storm destroying a Mac to the point that it can't be used as a lifeboat. Can you make way? No. Likely you couldn't make way in Sea State 4 period. So you can't do a transoceanic in it because it just can't climb the waves it would need to climb. That's entirely different than being unsafe.

So yes, we are dealing with a sailboat. My contention is that the MacGregor, properly ballasted, battened down, will survive any storm as well or better than any other sailboat. I'm not claiming super powers.

[Crikey]

Great discussion!

By the way, I found this somewhere: http://www.cafepress.ca/+super_matt_dar ... ,457242816

[Divecoz]

Hahahahaha I am with Mastreb.. 100% !! Right Up.... UNTIL he asks me to join him
BTDT of a sort anyway.. Twice.. and I hope, Never again.. and Neither time was it hours and hours let alone days or weeks.. But she did it.. Did it with STOCK... sails and rigging.. and No Damage that I have ever found..
For what I want her to do... she's fine.. I will leave sailing this boat to guys like Highlander or Beene or Mastreb..
MINE? Must look , comparably like? RAISENS.. I just No Longer have it in me to Push The Envelope of Disaster.. Call Me Any Name You Want... But I feel I am Too Old and have Managed to Survive / Lived... through more than enough ... maybes ...
I feel I have one last skill to learn, and that's proper handling in big seas under power.. and for that ? If he will ? I'll have my brother go with me and teach me what I Need to do..

[mastreb]

I feel I have one last skill to learn, and that's proper handling in big seas under power.. and for that ? If he will ? I'll have my brother go with me and teach me what I Need to do..

Well, the Mac isn't going to make way in seas much bigger than 8', and that will be like mountain climbing in terms of helmsman's exhaustion. You'll be limited to something like six knots as you can't really go faster than the wave speed or you'll be broaching through waves, which will slam the boat so much you'll stretch the rigging to the point that it'll start shock-loading the mast every roll. At that point you're not long until you break off the mast foot center bolt and all hull breaks lose as you've got a 32' aluminum death-pole randomly connected to your boat. running faster than large waves in this boat would be unequivocally bad unless you dropped and seriously secured the mast, like with docklines and a trucker's hitch over the cabin fore and aft stanchions.

Also consider that you'd need to be (a) in a cold water survival suit and (b) lashed to the boat to make this even reasonably possible. The Mac is a tipsy boat and she will easily toss you out of that high cockpit helm seat underway.

So don't include me with the people who know how to handle these conditions, I'm talking about survival in a bad situation, not doing this on purpose

[Crikey]

Kidding aside Mastreb, wouldn't it be better, from a point of control, to leave the rudders only down when faced with running down before a following sea? I realize surfing down an oncoming face could exceed the recommended speed limitation, but in spite of that isn't control vs broaching the better option?
I've been in this situation in an earlier boat and the drag and extra steering of the rudder (1) over that of the smallish outboard, probably saved my (Canadian) bacon.

Ross

[Kittiwake]

It seems to me that there is a certain amount of distinction to be made between survival in ‘typical’ offshore rough stuff (which I think was Mastreb’s underlying thesis) vs survival in less common super-mean conditions (where Mac26Mpaul is cautioning that all bets are off).

It is nice to have the point raised (which we all discover to our dismay out on the water) that you can’t depend on a planing-speed-run to save your bottom when the going gets tough … because you usually have to slow down to reduce slamming.

The issue of what rapid acceleration/deceleration may do to the mast foot had not occurred to me: that’s a bit disconcerting.
I also had not thought of the possible benefits of getting the rudders and daggerboard up to convert rolling into surfing under some conditions (related somewhat to Crikey's note). I have occasionally experimented (without reaching a great conclusion) as to whether leaving the daggerboard down at a marina reduces rolling when some idiot goes by at speed … but marina waves are short and choppy surface affairs.

Perhaps the MacGregor guys who have most experience with excessively-exciting offshore stuff are those who regularly make a dash to the Bahamas from Florida … although they seem to emphasize the Gulf Stream chop and the strong winds in the islands.

Kittiwake

[Phil M]

It seems to me that there is a certain amount of distinction to be made between survival in ‘typical’ offshore rough stuff (which I think was Mastreb’s underlying thesis) vs survival in less common super-mean conditions (where Mac26Mpaul is cautioning that all bets are off).
....
Perhaps the MacGregor guys who have most experience with excessively-exciting offshore stuff are those who regularly make a dash to the Bahamas from Florida … although they seem to emphasize the Gulf Stream chop and the strong winds in the islands.
Kittiwake

I can't speak for offshore waves or gulf crossings, but I believe our Mac are the best in larger waves and poor weather with a double-reefed main and sliver of a furled jib than compared to powering with a motor. I have tried both means of travelling, and come to the conclusion our boats were built primarily for sailing. Pushing the envelope is being 50 miles offshore.

Phil M

[pokerrick1]

If I'm EVER 50 miles offshore in anything but a cruise ship - - - rest assured I will be just a couple of miles from the OTHER shore

Rick

[Québec 1]

http://s263.photobucket.com/albums/ii12 ... =091-1.mp4

[arknoah]

If I'm EVER 50 miles offshore in anything but a cruise ship - - - rest assured I will be just a couple of miles from the OTHER shore

Rick

Amen, brother

[robbarnes1965]

I am so not ready yet but I've been reading Sailing Alone Around the World again by Joshua Slocum and am seriously getting the bug.

The book is a free download on Kindle or Android if you have not read it. I read it years ago before i really was deeper into sailing and did not appreciate it and what he experienced as much as now having been through a few storms.