Auto pilot

[Octaman]

Nah!
Kimono is of Japanese origin: "a thing put on," from ki "wear" + mono "thing."

Nevertheless, Crikey, coming back to our very special boats and out of sheer curiosity I would very much like to see your hydraulic steering system if you have any photos or a video to post - perhaps you may have already posted a mod that I am not aware of that you may direct me too. Thanks.

Octaman

[mastreb]

Yeah, I was thinking of the Kimono at the time - which as you all know, comes from the Greek word "Himonos"

I've got hydraulic steering now on my and was just about to put a Raymarine Smartpilot X10 on it until the Admiral told me I have to wait till after next spring, when we sell the house (coincidental, not because!). The model package I want uses the 12v in-line pump that is more recommended for power applications and I was wondering if anyone had more to say about the differences between the X5 and the X10. Price is definitely a consideration, but is there anything else?

Ross

I presume you are talking about the X-10 with the hydraulic type-1 12v hydraulic pump and not the linear actuator, correct? You can't use the linear drive on a hydraulic zero feedback system. You either need an autopilot with a hydraulic pump in your hydraulic path (no steering wheel movement and it will "fight you" if you don't disengage it) or you need a wheel motor like the X-5 that turns your wheel directly. I'd personally prefer the wheel motor since you get visual feedback and they're cheaper.

You might look at the SPX-5R--it's smaller and doesn't take up the entire wheel, but about $500 more than the X-5.

Matt

[seahouse]

Ahem... when technically speaking , I referr to it as an autohelm. An auto pilot on an airplane is capable of controlling both direction and throttle. The controls over the boat we're speaking of control direction only, and not throttle position.

Cruise control on an automobile is also colloquially referred to as "auto pilot", but it, of course, controls only throttle, and not direction (much to the chagrin, and surprise, of some "early adopters" of the technology ).

But we are all speaking colloquially here, right? (in my r hasp y voice).

- Brian.

[Octaman]

Good point Brian; fully agree
In fact, our automated helmsman has a name; she's called 'Rosa'.
Now, one may ask why is it a 'she' and not a 'he' . . . ?
But that is a different subject

Octaman

[Crikey]

Nah!
Kimono is of Japanese origin: "a thing put on," from ki "wear" + mono "thing."

Nevertheless, Crikey, coming back to our very special boats and out of sheer curiosity I would very much like to see your hydraulic steering system if you have any photos or a video to post - perhaps you may have already posted a mod that I am not aware of that you may direct me too. Thanks.

Octaman

Octaman, here's what little I've put up on it previously:
http://www.macgregorsailors.com/forum/v ... =8&t=18784
When I eventually get around to finishing it off with an 'autohelm' I'll re-post it all again as a dedicated mod. This winter I'm going to shorten and move the two connecting links from the cylinder forward one hole on the rudder arms. This will sacrifice a little bit of maximum turn angle which I don't think really gets used under sail anyway.

The in-line pump would seem to 'fight' the process, while working, just as much as a clutched in wheel would do. Price aside, I am thinking the hydraulic motor would respond much faster and over a shorter period of time compared to the wheel driven approach and as a result, perhaps use less battery as well (?).
The X10 box's autolearn response to hull pointing with its rate gyro might benefit from this. I'm also guessing, at this point that the X5 doesn't possess this kind of feature - which is perhaps the reason for its lower cost.
It's all guesswork at this point for me so chime right in if you've got any thoughts...

Ross

[Octaman]

Great stuff Ross.

Thank you for sharing. I love your hydraulic steering – very well executed.
I really liked the smart idea of lowering the rudders. Wish I had thought of that when I did my steering mods. I would probably have incorporated the idea. Brilliant.

The maximum turn angle is not necessary under sail as you say. You will need it though in tight turns when maneuvering in close quarters in a marina and you have a side wind blowing you away. So, I would not eliminate too much of that.

It may also be useful for you to know that I have never run out of battery power using the autopilot, or even come close to that with the Sportpilot plus.

It seems that we share similar concerns and are annoyed by the same things.
You may, or may not, be aware of my three steering mods that I invite you to take a look at, that I hope you will find interesting. The Sportpilot is not in these pictures – it came on a little later.
http://www.macgregorsailors.com/modt/index.php?view=662
http://www.macgregorsailors.com/modt/index.php?view=663
http://www.macgregorsailors.com/modt/index.php?view=665

Further to all the above, I can give you some more input with regard to my Sportpilot plus.

-Positive feature: If you suddenly need to change course to avoid an obstacle you just grab the wheel and steer off. There is no need to disengage the system before you take over. I find this to be an extremely efficient safety feature and it has come in handy a couple of times e.g. when you see an obstacle floating, like a log, at the very last minute. On other systems you need to disengage before you can resume control of the wheel. So, it will take a few seconds more.

-Negative feature: The location of the steering mechanism (between console and wheel) has two drawbacks.
One, it increases the distance of the wheel from the console and this makes the wheel stick out from the console more. I can live with it but I would prefer to have the wheel alone.
Two, the steering mechanism is open to the elements of nature. The sun gets to it as does water spray when powering into seas that have a chop coming in at an angle to the boat (although this is much less now with the bigger engine that allows the boat to plane better). The latter is of great concern even if the system is rated to be 100% waterproof. I would prefer to have the system inside the console or below decks for protection, where it can stay totally dry. Victor (on this forum) is working on his self-made autopilot and I think has incorporated this important feature of putting the motor inside the console in his design. I like that.

When I have a lot of spray coming into the cockpit I cover up the console with a dedicated (light) foul-weather jacket that I do not use myself any more. I zip it on, it stays loose around the whole console and Sprotpilot and leaves the wheel free to rotate. This simple method is very good at keeping everything dry including the throttle stick of the outboard that you can still control precisely by holding it over the jacket. Alternatively you can put your hand through the sleeve and control it.

As for the steering system; I have had no second thoughts with my double cable system – it has worked extremely well and gives me the feel and sense of security I need with none of the silly play I used to have with the stock steering. So, for me I would not have a reason to switch from cable to hydraulic, although I do admire your system.
When my Sportpilot plus dies one day, would I readily replace it with today’s equivalent which is the SPX-5R that Matt refers to in his posting? Yes, without hesitation. It is a good pilot and has proven strong enough to deal with the torque requirements of our small boats. But, I confess, I would also examine a possible alternative of a system that is concealed, either in the console or belowdecks, just to have it protected from the elements and out of sight. I have not researched that avenue yet and I would welcome ideas if someone has any.

If I were to make a comment on your hydraulic steering as I see it, I would say that it is great to be able to have the potential of connecting an autopilot system inside the boat, but at the same time I feel that the drawback continues to be that to steer the engine you retain the original factory design with its deficiencies. The outboard continues to rely on the rudders and is steered as a secondary command off them rather than being independent.
In my opinion the Mac is more of a power boat than a sailing boat and the engine, especially if it is on the larger side, should have direct benefit of whatever steering system you are using as there is more demand on the engine steering, and the rudders for sailing should be the secondary concern. I think I would link the hydraulics direct to the engine, even if this means having the piston outside in the well, and then have the rudders working off the engine steering. Just a thought.

This web site is about exchanging experiences and knowledge and I believe there is always something to benefit from another person’s inquisitive mind. Please take my comments in the constructive spirit with which they were written.
Hope all this helps and thank you for sharing.
I look forward to hearing your counter comments.

Octaman

[Crikey]

Great stuff Ross.


I really liked the smart idea of lowering the rudders.
Did you mean the bungee uphaul instead of the raising pulleys? So far they seem to perform ok except I'm not yet sure whether they will stay fully in contact with the stop plates under full speed sail. I've yet to find out how well the redundant bungees hold up to uv exposure over time.
My ideal mod here is still to be worked out with a simple circuit which is broken by a wire coming out of contact with the rudder position bracket, and changing a green console led to red, to indicate a strike or out of position rudder. I think that's a 'nand gate'?
Incidentally, up-haul pulleys would be great with a 12v car seat motor to act as a power winch!

The maximum turn angle is not necessary under sail as you say. You will need it though in tight turns when maneuvering in close quarters in a marina and you have a side wind blowing you away. So, I would not eliminate too much of that.
You could be right there! I'll still retain the earlier, longer links, if that proves to be the case and I can change it back. A workaround here would be to increase the pivot ratio of the motor - respective to the rudders (under power they'd be up), which would compensate for the six to one turns-to-lock I got with the Baystar.

It may also be useful for you to know that I have never run out of battery power using the autopilot, or even come close to that with the Sportpilot plus.
Would that hold true on a full days (or nights?) sail if poor weather shaded out the solar panels? Probably moot point!

http://www.macgregorsailors.com/modt/index.php?view=665
I wanted to know more about your bushings, and the extent of work that went into them? I'm still wanting to go there with mine soon but with all the changes I made before we began the season I left those two areas out. When I lowered the bottom bracket, the stern rake changed the angle through the upper and lower holes very slightly, and took out most of the slop in this area. It will come back through wear to the fiberglass over time, and I hope to get it properly bushed by then. I might do it by fabricating an inverted SS bracket, containing the bushing/bearing, located in the now-plugged original holes now above the new lowered position.

-Positive feature: If you suddenly need to change course to avoid an obstacle you just grab the wheel and steer off. There is no need to disengage the system before you take over.
Doesn't the engage wheel gear drive have to be disconnected first? The X10 smart display has a disengage/course change button that will come back on track after you've done the panic turn. The trick is to remember to do the drill while looking at the surfacing submarine directly ahead!


-Negative feature: The location of the steering mechanism (between console and wheel) has two drawbacks.
One, it increases the distance of the wheel from the console and this makes the wheel stick out from the console more. I can live with it but I would prefer to have the wheel alone.
Two, the steering mechanism is open to the elements of nature. The sun gets to it as does water spray when powering into seas that have a chop coming in at an angle to the boat (although this is much less now with the bigger engine that allows the boat to plane better). The latter is of great concern even if the system is rated to be 100% waterproof. I would prefer to have the system inside the console or below decks for protection, where it can stay totally dry. Victor (on this forum) is working on his self-made autopilot and I think has incorporated this important feature of putting the motor inside the console in his design. I like that.
The dual cable helm is still a very superior system compared to the original rack and pinion installed on the boat. The baystar helm is very compact and totally weatherproof though if I were to do it over I would have bought the tilt axis model along with an even larger wheel than I put on.

When I have a lot of spray coming into the cockpit I cover up the console with a dedicated (light) foul-weather jacket that I do not use myself any more. I zip it on, it stays loose around the whole console and Sprotpilot and leaves the wheel free to rotate. This simple method is very good at keeping everything dry including the throttle stick of the outboard that you can still control precisely by holding it over the jacket. Alternatively you can put your hand through the sleeve and control it.
I'm building a Dodger before next spring when I work out lines led aft. Very wet area under power!

If I were to make a comment on your hydraulic steering as I see it, I would say that it is great to be able to have the potential of connecting an autopilot system inside the boat, but at the same time I feel that the drawback continues to be that to steer the engine you retain the original factory design with its deficiencies. The outboard continues to rely on the rudders and is steered as a secondary command off them rather than being independent.
In my opinion the Mac is more of a power boat than a sailing boat and the engine, especially if it is on the larger side, should have direct benefit of whatever steering system you are using as there is more demand on the engine steering, and the rudders for sailing should be the secondary concern. I think I would link the hydraulics direct to the engine, even if this means having the piston outside in the well, and then have the rudders working off the engine steering. Just a thought.
All I can say to that is I did all this more for the sailing side, than the power. It's still much better than it was under power and my thought (above) about changing the pivot length on the motor might work even better. I think the linkage here could be a future mod and even with the BWY quick disconnect there is still too much play for my liking.

This web site is about exchanging experiences and knowledge and I believe there is always something to benefit from another person’s inquisitive mind. Please take my comments in the constructive spirit with which they were written.

Octaman

Amen Brother! Live long and prosper

Ross

[Octaman]

Ross,

Did you mean the bungee uphaul instead of the raising pulleys?
No, I meant drilling new holes and positioning the bottom brackets a little lower. In my opinion the rudders are inefficient as they come - there are a lot of threads on this subject - and there are more suitable custom rudders that one can buy and replace the stock rudders. But if one wishes to keep that factory made rudders, then lowering them slightly is an excellent way to give them a little extra grip in the water.

Would that hold true on a full days (or nights?) sail if poor weather shaded out the solar panels? Probably moot point!
I don’t have solar panes. The AutoPilot runs off the 70 AmpH service battery. My sailing time has never exceeded 5 continuous daylight hours (the admiral loses patience after that and we fire up the engine and make way fast). Under these circumstances, I have never run out of power for the Sportpilot.

I wanted to know more about your bushings, and the extent of work that went into them?
I will post some photos that explain a lot. The bushings are self made at a machine shop. The bottom bushing is an SSpipe welded on to the bottom securing plate of the bracket. Into that goes a Teflon bushing that was machined to fit the size of the rudder stock. The top bushing is exactly the same thing, only it had to be fibre glassed on to the hull.

I might do it by fabricating an inverted SS bracket, containing the bushing/bearing, located in the now-plugged original holes now above the new lowered position.
You will still need to have a second fixing point higher up. One bushing/bearing is not as good as two bushings/bearing (as far apart as possible) to counter the torque induced by the rudders under strain.

Doesn't the engage wheel gear drive have to be disconnected first?
No. The clutch is self-releasing. This is the beauty of the system. Then when you let go, it re-engages and comes back on course.

I'm building a Dodger before next spring when I work out lines led aft. Very wet area under power!
I’m working on a dodger too. The one I am designing will not be the conventional dodger that goes over the companionway. That is too far forward to protect the pedestal and the helmsman. This will come a little later, I hope.

Let me look for those photos and get them up on photobucket for you.

Cheers

Octaman

[Hamin' X]

!	Moderator Note:
	Moved rudder discussion to a more appropriate forum: http://www.macgregorsailors.com/forum/v ... 37#p232827 ~Rich---Hamin' X~

[Octaman]

We got carried away there, didn't we Hamin' X
thanks

Octaman

[seacatcapt]

Can someone please post the outside diameter dimension of the X5 wheel drive? It is not listed in the Raymarine specs. Also, for those who have replaced their steering with a larger wheel, any web links or part number suggestions? Giving serious thought to the X5. Hey, it's almost Christmas!

[mastreb]

Can someone please post the outside diameter dimension of the X5 wheel drive? It is not listed in the Raymarine specs. Also, for those who have replaced their steering with a larger wheel, any web links or part number suggestions? Giving serious thought to the X5. Hey, it's almost Christmas!

If you're worried about wheel size, consider the ray marine SPX-5. Basically the same but uses a column mounted motor rather than a wheel motor. Also about $400 more.

Matt

[Phil M]

Can someone please post the outside diameter dimension of the X5 wheel drive? It is not listed in the Raymarine specs. Also, for those who have replaced their steering with a larger wheel, any web links or part number suggestions? Giving serious thought to the X5. Hey, it's almost Christmas!

Although my Mac is presently in winter storage, it is easily accessible, so ...

The outside diameter dimension of the X5 is 14". My steering wheel has an outside diamter of 18", but was installed by my original dealer who very recently has declared bankruptcy!

http://www.macgregorsailors.com/modt/in ... ?view=1389

Merry Christmas?

Phil M

[Chinook]

I installed the X5 Wheelpilot on my X last winter. I didn't like the idea of installing a wider diameter wheel and further restricting movement in the cockpit. I dealt with the problem by making some shims, which I placed between the wheel spoke mounting brackets and the drive wheel housing. I made the shims from a white plastic cutting board, which I bought at the local grocery store. I cut the shims out on the band saw to match the shape of the brackets and rasped them down a bit, so they sat flat against the drive wheel housing. These shims raised the steering wheel a half inch away from the drive wheel housing, which was ample distane to allow for comfortable gripping of the steering wheel. I did have to purchase longer mounting bolts.

[Fxwg80hd]

AutoPilot provides:
One-click rollout for even the most complex, load-balanced setups
Automatic backup and easy rollback for bad builds
Full builds, including database, configuration, and code
Complex configuration, including hooks for pre and post-build (enabling third-party tools)
Advanced automation, using macro-macro, to capture changes to the Drupal Administration UI
Live-to-development database capture, to enable quick fixing of production errors
Scheduled builds, so you run them after hours during non-peak periods

Just need it to hold a course, but now my head hurts.