MacGregorSailors.com

Viz..you are probably okay just pulling down on our relatively lightly loaded boats, winds under 25 where most of us live our sailing lives. On SF bay, you would get into trouble..

Thanks Cat (and Judy!) - I'm really not trying to argue for the sake of arguing, the engineer in me is just wondering what the difference is between a rope and a hook...and, I suppose, why a commonplace system would not have been designed properly in the first place, or even if there is something about the cringle/hook design that I'm missing!

I'll be doing a lot of my sailing in Tampa Bay early on, and in the Gulf once I have more experience under my belt, and we get gusts and passing squalls/storms frequently here (while not normally the steady high winds SFB gets, to be sure). I don't want a system that's going to rip apart if I get hit with some gusts or have to ride out a storm, so I'm fine with making the necessary changes - just trying to understand what's different about the two systems. Perhaps the cringle/hook system isn't really designed for high winds either??

I was very interested in this thread because I wanted to consider the alternatives while keeping everything as simple as possible to start with (until I get more sailing experience).


PS I didn't intend to hijack the thread either.

vizwhiz wrote:Thanks Cat (and Judy!) - I'm really not trying to argue for the sake of arguing, the engineer in me is just wondering what the difference is between a rope and a hook...and, I suppose, why a commonplace system would not have been designed properly in the first place, or even if there is something about the cringle/hook design that I'm missing! <<snipped>> Perhaps the cringle/hook system isn't really designed for high winds either??

Both a properly designed rope reefing system and hook reefing system are safe for high winds.

The key features that a reefing system needs are the following:

* the bottom front corner of the mainsail (aka the tack) must be held securely down and forward so it stays close to the mast. A reefing hook can do the job well. So can a line that pulls at approximately 45 degrees forward and down.

* The bottom back corner of the mainsail (aka the clew) must be held securely down and backwards.

* If both the front and back corners of the mainsail are pulled away from each other, the foot of the sail will be totally flat.

*If the ropes or hook don't keep it completely flat, and permit it to get baggy along the foot, the boat will handle badly.

* If the front line or hook lets the wind yank the luff towards the back of the boat, you may rip the front of the mainsail at the boltrope or the slider.

Here's are some pictures

Below: A single-line reefing system


Below: A two-line reefing system. More hardware, but less friction and required less strength, protects the luff better.


For the most elegantly simply, you can use a reef hook at the gooseneck; Here's a pic of a reef hook from Barton Marine, but there are many other sources:



Hope this helps clarify. I'll be happy to keep answering your questions.

Judy B

More pictures of various ways to reef:

If you use a reef hook, floppy rings at the luff cringle are easier to put onto the hook. even if you don't have a hook, they make life easier.



Another reef hook at the gooseneck:



Hope this helps!

Fair winds,
Judy B

arknoah,
you mentioned the gizmo (like Sumner made) in the slug track that keeps your slugs from falling out and yet allows the sail slugs to slide all the way down.
Like you, i really prefer Sumner's invention, best one I've seen, but have to wait on that one. One thing you can do, not nearly as elegant, is make your self a pair of sheet metal covers (screwed to the mast). Narrows the slug opening down so they can't fall out, but can still slide. Simple, cheap, easy. Not much force on the slugs to worry about. Works for me.
Another way is to cut a piece of 1/2" flexible plastic electrical conduit (about $1 per 10') Fits right in the slug track opening. Cut a slot in the conduit wide enough for the slugs to slide, and screw in it place. Works well. You can find a pic in the Mods database.
Glad to see you get your reefing figured out. Most people wind up trying several methods before they're satisfied. Few things on my boat are forever.

snotnosetommy wrote:arknoah,
you mentioned the gizmo (like Sumner made) in the slug track that keeps your slugs from falling out and yet allows the sail slugs to slide all the way down.
Like you, i really prefer Sumner's invention, best one I've seen, but have to wait on that one. One thing you can do, not nearly as elegant, is make your self a pair of sheet metal covers (screwed to the mast). Narrows the slug opening down so they can't fall out, but can still slide. Simple, cheap, easy. Not much force on the slugs to worry about. Works for me.
Another way is to cut a piece of 1/2" flexible plastic electrical conduit (about $1 per 10') Fits right in the slug track opening. Cut a slot in the conduit wide enough for the slugs to slide, and screw in it place. Works well. You can find a pic in the Mods database.
Glad to see you get your reefing figured out. Most people wind up trying several methods before they're satisfied. Few things on my boat are forever.

Thanks. I hadn't worked on the slug issue yet. I'll check out the pics in the mod section.

vizwhiz wrote:Thanks Judy...

As I was reading your post, I was thinking...the slides keep the sail up against the mast along it's whole length...so when reefed, the aft reef line will pull the foot tight against the slides just like the outhaul does against the slides on the foot when not reefed. So I wasn't sure I followed why you said it had to pull forward also.

Then as I got to the end at the end of your post, you say that it can rip the slides or bolt rope out of the front...but wouldn't it do that with or without being reefed?

I guess I don't understand why it would be okay to pull the reef cringle down to the hook and hook it there, nothing pulling forward on that, and the slides are still all that are holding the sail to the mast with the cringle hooked - but then it would not be okay to make a rope do the same thing...pull the cringle down to almost exactly the same point as the hook is, and turn the rope through a cheek block instead of hooking the cringle to the reefing hook? I guess I thought it would be okay because it was doing essentially the same thing to the mast as when you bring the cringle to the hook... Does that make sense?

I missed this question (highlighted in red) when you first posted it.

When the sail isn't reefed, the tack cringle or ring holds it forward and close to the mast, and that prevents the outhaul from ripping the cloth off the slugs or bolt rope. If the mainsail doesn't fit properly at the tack pin and doesn't hold the corner of the sail close enough to the mast, the cloth will rip away from the bolt rope, just above the entry gate, or the first slug.

We see it pretty commonly as a repair job.

Fair winds
Judy B
Hyde Sails of Northern CA

Judy, When I reef my 26x, I have a rope about 3 or 4 feet long with a knot in one end and a removable hook on the other end. I put the rope thru the reef point on the sail, and hook the other end to a bolt at the base of the mast. On the leech of the sail, I have a 12 inch rope with a knot in both ends thru the reef point. I slip the rope thru the rear finger of the clete on the boom, tie the sail ties, and its done. Works for me. What am I doing wrong?Jim Nolan

jim nolan wrote:Judy, When I reef my 26x, I have a rope about 3 or 4 feet long with a knot in one end and a removable hook on the other end. I put the rope thru the reef point on the sail, and hook the other end to a bolt at the base of the mast. On the leech of the sail, I have a 12 inch rope with a knot in both ends thru the reef point. I slip the rope thru the rear finger of the clete on the boom, tie the sail ties, and its done. Works for me. What am I doing wrong?Jim Nolan

Without seeing a picture or drawing of your reefing system, I really don't think I can confidently give you an opinion regarding the design of your reefing system. I'd be happy to take a look at a picture if you have one handy.

Everything is fine if...
you can keep the reefed foot of the sail flat in the strongest gusts, and it's impossible to yank lower front corner aft and away from the boom, no matter how hard you pull.

you're in danger of ripping the sailcloth/boltrope/slugs along the luff if....
you can yank the foot of the reef sail aft so that you create diagonal wrinkles at the lowest hank or where the bolt rope leaves the feeder gate, 77

Most riggers will recommend you set the lines up so that:
the forward reef line pulls the luff reefing grommet forward and down.
the aft reef line pulls the reef clew reefing grommet aft and down.

Hope that helps,
Judy B
Hyde Sails of Northern California

Judy B wrote:
Most riggers will recommend you set the lines up so that:
the forward reef line pulls the luff reefing grommet forward and down.
the aft reef line pulls the reef clew reefing grommet aft and down.

Hope that helps,
Judy B
Hyde Sails of Northern California

At least I got this part right!