Backstay on the M

[delevi]

Yes, it does create draft, and typically you want less draft when close hauled unless in really light winds, and no draft when it blows. Ok, the conseus is full rotation is better, so let's go with that and assume it's fact. Now, for those who have looked at your bare mast fully rotated, you likely saw what I saw. A mast that curves to windward. The million dollar questions is, how much of an impact, if any, does a crooked mast have on the mainsail's performance? If there is an impact, is it significant enough to offset the benefit of rotation? One step further.. Is the crooked rotated mast a liability i.e. more likely to break? Again, I'm talking no backstay loads here. Just the shroud/forestay loads which are unevenly distributed along the mast when it rotates, causing it to curve to the side.

Leon

[egwall1]

Leon,
Where did you get the duplicate mast base rotating fitting to put up top? What was ballpark cost?
In addition to the performance benefits your site, I wonder if that might be stable enough (relative to boat axis) now to mount my Rotavectra up there...?

[delevi]

egwall1,
As I mentioned, I didn't make this mod. My dealer did (Arena yachts.) They used a mast base and modified it somewhat and weld an aft attachment point for the cable. The whole deal (masthead hardware, cable, blocks, line, shackles was $500.) I know, that's a lot, but we're talking about $125 just in blocks. The mast base can't be cheap... lots of stainless steel there, plus the modification work. Mine was the fourth boat this backstay went on.

The whole deal is extremely strong, so that wouldn't be the issue as far as mounting your rotovecta, but you may be creative with your mounting.. as I recall it isn't easy to mount it on a flat surface and the top of the swivel has two metal ridges.. like small beams. Also, if you have a bimini, you would need to disconnect the backstay to use the bimini and that will cause the top to swivel to whichever side you strap the loose backsgtay to.... there goes the accuracy of the wind system. Might be something to explore, though.

Leon

[beene]

I am not willing to give up my bimini to gain sailing performance. My M is a cruiser, not a racer. I use her for pleasure more than performance. For a real adrenaline rush, I would sail a hobbie for the day. Any cat or tri would put a seriously huge smile on my face.

Leon, there has to be another way to get the back stay control and added performance without sacrificing comfort while sailing. The sun can be a killer, and even with a hat and glasses, you get it from all over the cockpit as it reflects right back at your face. The more you can cut that down the better IMO.

What about a stay running to the mast crutch? Even making an enhanced one like say DD has done for different reasons.

I like the idea of having the back stay, I hate to see the sag in the headsail. Drives me nuts.

I think you will really enjoy the added control and performance from what you have done, I am just not willing to give up my bimini.

G

[Highlander]

Beene

No need to give up your bimini an arch would be nice but costly ! in SS

leon
Pic's please , how much does a swivel mast base cost I'll be checking out , I already have a spare gar, vang.
$500. I'll be waiting on the end results hurry Leon don't keep us all in suspense !?

J

[delevi]

Nobody is giving up a bimini. Mine is part of a full enclosure. C'mon, I'm not stupid. Basically, the choice is, sail with the backstay, or sail with the bimini/enclosure. You can't use both at the same time. That's it. The backstay fits nicely with the bimini ratracted. If I want to set the bimini, I just slack the backstay and clip it to the starboard stancion with a bunjee to get it out of the way. I figure this isn't much of a compromise since the backstay would be used in heavier winds, and at that point, I would want the bimini retracted anyway. I'll take some pix soon.

Cheers,
Leon

[dutchwinter]

couldn't a backstay be put on an arch? you could make an arch to keep up permanently, and it could also act as a mast support while trailering, as well as all other things that you'd use an arch for.

[parrothead]

there has to be another way to get the back stay control and added performance without sacrificing comfort while sailing. The sun can be a killer, and even with a hat and glasses, you get it from all over the cockpit as it reflects right back at your face. The more you can cut that down the better IMO.

I agree, can't imagine sailing our without the bimini on a warm, sunny day. The Admiral would definitely revolt.

After 2 seasons, I'm still quite happy with my bimini-friendly running backstay mod. http://macgregorsailors.com/modt/index.php?view=819

[delevi]

Backstay disconnected and to the side to use bimini. (can also be walked forward and clipped at the mast.)


Swiveling masthead attachment




Bimini retracted, backstay connected


6:1 block & tackle w/ cam cleat


Attachemnt point under stern rail seat

[dutchwinter]

Maybe i don't get it because I'm so new to this, but what i think is this. if you already have the bimini, and the stern seats, and the mast for the wind speed indicator, as well as the backstay, you must also have the mast crutch for trailering as well. couldn't we figure out a way to put these all together? like a stern seat arch?
Then you could have everything on it, and i dont see that it would take alot more framing at all. im thinking like bob lees boat, trust me, or maybe like l scotts x. they both have pretty beefy arches, i wonder if they could support a backstay? I'm sure if designed right it would have less bulk than having everything added separately, as well as being strong enough to support a backstay. and be multifunctional.
A few bucks of emt $3.99 for 10 ft of 3/4 "at lowes, and a conduit bender, 25 bucks. im thinking a prototype could be made cheap and pretty fast. if it works out, then it could be done with ss tubes just as easy. of course all of my knowledge as thin as it is comes just from books and what I've learned online. if the emt isn't strong enough perhaps imc? i haven't priced it yet though.

Still, this will be my method not only for the arch I'm planning, but also for the bowsprit/chair/pulpit that i plan on building. it could all be folly, but that's my 2 cents.

[Currie]

Is any of that deck hardware strong enough for this job? (i.e. horn cleat or eye-strap). Has it been re-inforced?

[delevi]

The horn cleat doesn't hold the backstay. Just the eye on the stern which is through-bolted and was designed to hold the aft lifeline for a setup without stern rail seats. I was assured it's plenty strong (the fiberglass back there is thick.)

As for an arch, it is an idea I have pondered, however attachment is the issue. I don't see a way to get on the backside of that fiberglass. It would also have to sit behind the bimini and higher, thus reaching for the backstay adjuster would be an issue. This system is simple and does the job, so I'll leave it at that.

Leon

[Highlander]

Leon

Nice set-up I hope to hear up-dates from you on sailing improvements by the way the mast swivel base is $174. Can , a 1/8" SS back stay will run around $80. Can, A vang any where from $100. to $160. depending on what you buy . So $500. installed is a good price

J

[Highlander]

I think this is a nice set-up & adjustable around $500. though not bad not sure if the sizes are good enough 3' 11" H x max W 7' 10"

I,ve been asked so here it is Rekord Marine site made by Victory Hardware
J

[delevi]

John,
Less than 4' high is a good height to smack your head into a metal arch Looks like it mounts on the genny tracks and big enough to take over the whole track. Doesn't appear to be the right fit. An arch on the back OTOH would need to be about 6' high. That's the length of the SS post for my wind transducer to get good clearance above the bimini. I still wouldn't go there. It can't be permanently mounted since it's too high for mast lowering... would need to be removed and swapped with the standard mast arch. Just seems like the whole deal is way more trouble than any potential upside. The one good thing, if it can be pulled off, is it would allow for one to have the backstay connected with the bimini in use, and perhaps even the full enclosure. OTOH, when one needs to tighten a backstay, it's probably too windy to have the bimini up. I've had mine up in 25 kts, but it looked scarry. Plus at that point, you really don't want anything to block your view of the mainsail. You'll be working too hard to worry about getting shade My setup can actually be easily altered as a wishbone setup, though not necessary and would interfere with the raising of the seat. Better yet, it can be used as a runner. Very easy to disconnect from its attachment on the stern and swapped to the other side which has an identical eye on the port side. This is probably how I will use it when I wish to exert the extra ewffort for max performance. I will also intsall rotation limiters to limit rotation to about 10-15 degrees. I believe this will be ideal for close hauled and with the backstay shackled to the leeward side, would line it and the swivel to be pulling directly aft (not sideways) on the rotated mast. The rotation limiters will be on block and tackle systems, held at the front of the jib tracks. I'll be able to slack off for full rotation when sailing on a reach. I don't think I will run the controls aft, so would require a trip on deck. No big deal since it would only be slacked in lighter air. IN heavy air, I want to keep the mast either at minimum rotation or pinned center line. My theory is that having a straight mast (without curvature of 50 degree rotation) as well as minimum draft (which would increase at the 50 degree rotation) will far exceed any benefit of cleaner windflow on the leeward side of the main. Depowering is key in heavy air, and I want the rig as stable as possible. Will let you know how it turns out.

Leon