Best upwind speed and VMG
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baldbaby2000
- Admiral
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- Location: Rapid City, SD, 2005 26M, 40hp Tohatsu
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I basically agree but I don't think it's a big difference and if you add in the effort of gybing I'm not sure it's always worth it. I have a VMG setting on my wind indicator and find that about the best VMG downwind is with the headsail almost blankted by the main. I've always thought of doing some polars but on the lake I sail the wind usually isn't steady enough to get a consistant reading.Not so. Ever notice how race boats never go DDW. It is ALWAYS faster to reach than to run. Spinnaker included!
Daniel
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pokerrick1
- Admiral
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- Sailboat: Venture 23
- Location: Las Vegas, NV (Henderson, near Lake Mead)
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pokerrick1
- Admiral
- Posts: 2269
- Joined: Sun Aug 27, 2006 7:20 pm
- Sailboat: Venture 23
- Location: Las Vegas, NV (Henderson, near Lake Mead)
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Richard O'Brien
- Captain
- Posts: 653
- Joined: Fri May 14, 2004 8:20 am
- Location: Lakewood, CO. Mercury 60hp bigfoot M0427B404
I'd certainly like to see a racing thread Leon. Somebody that's always pushing the limits like you would like it. I'll bet? These discussions on maxximizing VMG are fun, and probably are a bit repetitious. Who cares?delevi wrote:Any idea where I can read about the 101 of racing? I never raced and I know virtually nothing about markers, rules PRHF, etc. Suppose I can Google it, but if anyone knows ...
Some basic racing stuff Quid Pro Quo all of your advice:
1. most races are around three buoys in a triangle, called marks, which look like beer cans, thus the nomer, beer can races. The symmetrical spinnaker boats like long triangles so they can have long downhill runs, usually.
2. Most turns are to the port side just like NASCAR. The first leg is upwind
3. our races are about 4-6 miles for the slow boats(high PHRF over 222)
8-12 miles for the fast boats( phrf 90 -222)
4. PHRF is the number of seconds handicapped per nautical mile, I think. Ask Daniel? The phrf is assigned by each club based on formulas, and experience.
5. The sailing instructions called SI's, are extracted from the "Racing Rules of Sailing", a diabolically complex book which is owned by many, understood by few from U.S. Sailing for us.
5. Starts are evil and full of lots of bad language. The Race Committee
boat (RC boat) is always on the starboard side of the start line across from an orange pennant which marks the other side of the start line.
Always start on the starboard side, starboard tack if possible.
6. If you have a bad start, light the barbecue, and act like you don't care.
more later.
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pokerrick1
- Admiral
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- Joined: Sun Aug 27, 2006 7:20 pm
- Sailboat: Venture 23
- Location: Las Vegas, NV (Henderson, near Lake Mead)
17
Oh yes it can - - - if it's under tow at the same time by a cigar boateric3a wrote:That Polar Curve must be wrong... Doesn't seem like the Mac can sail at 17 mph?!!
Rick
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delevi
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Thanks for the info Richard. I will do a bit of reading on this stuff. A racing thread would be cool, perhaps good education for those of us who don't know much about it i.e. myself.
Yes it can Scott. Roger says so
I'm going to do my best to prove him right. With enough alcohol, 7 can look like 17
Code: Select all
Doesn't seem like the Mac can sail at 17 mph?I'm going to do my best to prove him right. With enough alcohol, 7 can look like 17
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walt
- First Officer
- Posts: 209
- Joined: Mon Feb 05, 2007 9:05 am
- Location: Colorado "Sea Eagle" 1990 26S
The original post was interesting to me as I have done pretty much the same thing land sailng and ice boating and I also think its pretty effective in a boat to boat race - but not necessarilly in a round the mark type of race.
If your boat has forward speed, wind gusts will change both the speed and direction of the apparant wind. What the original poster was doing (I beleive) was keeping the sheets constant but correcting for wind gusts effects by steering the boat.
On a land sailer, the "in general" optimum operating point (for a given sheet angle) is more black and white than on a sailboat but it generally occurs right at the point where the land sailer starts to hike. In my expereince, it was no doubt a fast way to sail if you leave the sheet fixed and you steer the boat so that it is always just on the verge of hiking - but not hiking. However, your direction is constantly changing. If you sheet in harder, you can still steer the boat to maintain "just before hiking" and you will still having constantly changing direction but generally point higher.
This works pretty well in a two boat drag race since the boats probably arent trying to go anywhere in particular and the lead boat "mostly" gets to chose the direction (which might be constantly varying because he is doing the above).
Sounds like for the boat you were on, you had determined that a 20 degree heel was an "optimum operating point" and just kept it there by steering and you were fast compared to the other boat. Ive done this also on a Hobie cat which seemed to be effective, Ill have to try it on my 26S..
Note that on land sailer, your boat speed is usually "multiples" wind speed. Since the aparent wind is a vector of true wind and boat speed, this tends to reduce the effects of gusts - which probably makes the steering to control the sails a bit easier.
If your boat has forward speed, wind gusts will change both the speed and direction of the apparant wind. What the original poster was doing (I beleive) was keeping the sheets constant but correcting for wind gusts effects by steering the boat.
On a land sailer, the "in general" optimum operating point (for a given sheet angle) is more black and white than on a sailboat but it generally occurs right at the point where the land sailer starts to hike. In my expereince, it was no doubt a fast way to sail if you leave the sheet fixed and you steer the boat so that it is always just on the verge of hiking - but not hiking. However, your direction is constantly changing. If you sheet in harder, you can still steer the boat to maintain "just before hiking" and you will still having constantly changing direction but generally point higher.
This works pretty well in a two boat drag race since the boats probably arent trying to go anywhere in particular and the lead boat "mostly" gets to chose the direction (which might be constantly varying because he is doing the above).
Sounds like for the boat you were on, you had determined that a 20 degree heel was an "optimum operating point" and just kept it there by steering and you were fast compared to the other boat. Ive done this also on a Hobie cat which seemed to be effective, Ill have to try it on my 26S..
Note that on land sailer, your boat speed is usually "multiples" wind speed. Since the aparent wind is a vector of true wind and boat speed, this tends to reduce the effects of gusts - which probably makes the steering to control the sails a bit easier.
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walt
- First Officer
- Posts: 209
- Joined: Mon Feb 05, 2007 9:05 am
- Location: Colorado "Sea Eagle" 1990 26S
Getting into landsailing would have different levels of difficulty. There are small comercially available landsailers such as the Blokart http://www.blokart.com/ and these seem to work fairly well and are probably going to be the only part of the sport which will do much thriving in the future mostly because of gas and transportation prices.
At the other end of the sport, you have to build yourself http://www.nalsa.org/
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/wingboats/
The difference between a blokart and the big boats is dramatic - say in a 10 mph wind, the Blokart might be doing 30 to 35 mph, a world cup winning class 5 to 3 landyacht might be hitting over 60 mph.
The big boats are - well, big. Even though the sail area is relitively small (like 5 to 7 square meter), they are very high aspect so the mast height might be into the mid 20's feet and then they need a big platform to support this. In the US, there currently is competition between rotating wing masted sails (with a soft leach) and slotted flap sails at the hghest levels with each type having benifits. This end of the sport is pretty limited and I think the boats got too big (they have increased in size in the last 10 years) which makes getting to the dry lake beds expensive because of gas prices. Not that this would mean or matter much to people reading this since a lot of us are used to carting around a 26 foot sailboat.
Most land sailing that I know of occurs in the deserts around LA, deserts around Reno and accross Nevada and in SE Oregon. There is a little pocket of landsailing near Demming NM. You could just jump into the sport full on and see what happens (which is what most people in the sport did) or go to an event and watch. The Nalsa Americas cup held for a week near the end of March at Ivanpah dry lake bed (on I-15 near the Cal/Nev border) is a good place to see the state of the art. Throughout the summer, there are some events such as Playas NM in April (more informal) and near Reno (Black rock July 4th, Smith Creek memorial and labor weekends) , Alvord in Oregon usually in October and Ivanpah again in November.
I used to land sail and travel all over a lot but mostly now have just been sailing the Mac and a Hobie cat during the summer (feel guilty about not doing more windsurfing but..). However, during the winter, I still ice boat if possible on one of these http://iceflyer.com/picture/eleven_1204_1.jpg which will hit into the 60's - 70 mph range in 40 mph winds and do about 4x wind speed in light wind. (do knots and nm apply on a dry lake bed?)
One nice thing about land sailing is that you can go to a dry lake bed and its usually in good shape and the only variable is the wind. However, with ice boating, the ice may be good one day and trashed the next by a bunch of snow. Even over a few hour period, the ice quality can change. So its a lot harder to try and plan to be somewhere and find good ice boating conditions. Where I ice boat in Colorado (about in the middle of the state at Elevemile res - 100 miles from Denver), its normally fairly reliable in December to early Jan. If you were in the area and if the conditions were good (last year sucked bad for ice boating but that was unusual), Id be happy to take you out (even have an extra boat - type with the rear windsurfing sail).
At the other end of the sport, you have to build yourself http://www.nalsa.org/
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/wingboats/
The difference between a blokart and the big boats is dramatic - say in a 10 mph wind, the Blokart might be doing 30 to 35 mph, a world cup winning class 5 to 3 landyacht might be hitting over 60 mph.
The big boats are - well, big. Even though the sail area is relitively small (like 5 to 7 square meter), they are very high aspect so the mast height might be into the mid 20's feet and then they need a big platform to support this. In the US, there currently is competition between rotating wing masted sails (with a soft leach) and slotted flap sails at the hghest levels with each type having benifits. This end of the sport is pretty limited and I think the boats got too big (they have increased in size in the last 10 years) which makes getting to the dry lake beds expensive because of gas prices. Not that this would mean or matter much to people reading this since a lot of us are used to carting around a 26 foot sailboat.
Most land sailing that I know of occurs in the deserts around LA, deserts around Reno and accross Nevada and in SE Oregon. There is a little pocket of landsailing near Demming NM. You could just jump into the sport full on and see what happens (which is what most people in the sport did) or go to an event and watch. The Nalsa Americas cup held for a week near the end of March at Ivanpah dry lake bed (on I-15 near the Cal/Nev border) is a good place to see the state of the art. Throughout the summer, there are some events such as Playas NM in April (more informal) and near Reno (Black rock July 4th, Smith Creek memorial and labor weekends) , Alvord in Oregon usually in October and Ivanpah again in November.
I used to land sail and travel all over a lot but mostly now have just been sailing the Mac and a Hobie cat during the summer (feel guilty about not doing more windsurfing but..). However, during the winter, I still ice boat if possible on one of these http://iceflyer.com/picture/eleven_1204_1.jpg which will hit into the 60's - 70 mph range in 40 mph winds and do about 4x wind speed in light wind. (do knots and nm apply on a dry lake bed?)
One nice thing about land sailing is that you can go to a dry lake bed and its usually in good shape and the only variable is the wind. However, with ice boating, the ice may be good one day and trashed the next by a bunch of snow. Even over a few hour period, the ice quality can change. So its a lot harder to try and plan to be somewhere and find good ice boating conditions. Where I ice boat in Colorado (about in the middle of the state at Elevemile res - 100 miles from Denver), its normally fairly reliable in December to early Jan. If you were in the area and if the conditions were good (last year sucked bad for ice boating but that was unusual), Id be happy to take you out (even have an extra boat - type with the rear windsurfing sail).