daggerboards - again

[Jim Bunnell]

We've had a couple of discussions of daggerboard problems; I thought I'd share my woes with the list. There really does seem to be a problem with the early 26M's at least.

Here's the tale:

We were on our first sail in the boat. We put in at Metro Beach (Lake Saint Claire, north of Detroit) on Tuesday morning, since the weather was predicted to be stormy the rest of the week, and because for the first launch I didn't want to deal with weekend ramp crowds. Motoring out of the channel into Lake Saint Claire, I fiddled around with rudders and daggerboard trying to find a stable steering combination. I'm used to a tiller on a smaller keel boat: huge difference in feel. Once beyond the end markers for the channel I put my daughter at the wheel for a few minutes as I raised the main and (planned to) unfurled the genny. By this time I had the daggerboard all the way down anticipating a close reach. I had her head south since we have friends living in Saint Claire Shores we wanted to sail by. I didn't process how far out the shallows went, I assumed that once clear of the channel we were in good shape. Ha!- shows how well I read a chart. We hung up, spun around and sailed off (wind from the southwest, just pushed us back). It certainly wasn't anything that would have bothered me in the keel boat, but apparently it was enough torque to cause the top of the board to fail, or just to pull the knot through the board? I looked back a couple of minutes later and saw the board slowly spiraling into the murky water. So, we motored upwind to our friend's house (major points for the Mac's versatility) and then ran back down wind under sail later.

I know it was my basic error which put us aground, but I was fiddling around on the boat today and took a good look at the daggerboard line. Somehow, during the grounding I guess, the stopper knot and washer pulled through the turning block on the cabin top. I speculate this allowed the board to drop clear of the slot and whip around in the water, which then broke the top of the board or allowed that knot to pull through. There was no safety line on the board (hull # 19). All three knots (one at each end and one in the middle of the line) were intact, but the middle knot was at the pulley on the top of the daggerboard slot.

Question for those of you who have experience with daggerboard setups. Is it normal for a minor grounding on soft sand or mud to cause damage beyond paint, whatever? There really didn't seem to be enough contact or pressure to cause this.

I guess my point in posting is to encourage all of you to check lines, knots, and safety lines really well. And maybe line up a spare board!

Jim Bunnell

[Mark Prouty]

Hope this helps:
http://macgregorsailors.com/phpBB/viewt ... aggerboard

[Joe 26M Time Warp]

Feeling your pain Jim, I thought I'd relate a story that deals with some similarities.
We were sailing the Buc (an 18ft Chrysler Bucaneer) on one of our very first outings. It was on a small inland lake where the only the yacht club was for sailors, and was where we had a slip. We set out before there was much wind and before most of the other boats. After some slow sailing, I became curious about the boundaries and we started sailng in and out of some of the shallow areas. With the Buc's kick-up center-board, I wasn't very worried about grounding lightly, and the board did kick up several times in weeds and sand bars.
Then we noticed the wind picking up as the afternoon wore on and the number of boats now sailing increased by a large margin. We continued our sight seeing in shallow areas, chatting about houses and the places we saw.
At some point the wind went from being strong to being trully spirited, and I saw at least 4 or 5 other boats go over as some very strong winds hit them first and were heading right at us. Unfortunately, this occurred right when we were on one of those sand bars and I made a foolish attempt to turn away from what I thought might be a sure dump.

Instead, what happened was my turn halted any momentum and the wind gust blew us backwards digging the CB in and then turning the boat almost broadside to the teeth of it. Although panic was close, we did ease all sheets and jump to the high side of the boat.

All we could do was ride it out there, stuck in the sand with the wind holding the boat down and the sails madly slapping around.
Somehow of course, we survived. And given the age and condition of the old Buc, surprisingly it and it's centerboard survived to sail again for many years.

From this experience I learned and I've never taken "touching bottom" so lightly since then. For a long time we thought we'd buy a Mac X, and that thinking about CB's still applied. When we wound up with a Mac M, one of the first things I wanted was a functional depth gage. Not only to prevent the dagger from touching, but to keep the bottom of the boat as free of marks and minor damage as possible.

We've sailed right where you were, although last year the water level was much lower than it is now. I guess my only meaningful comment is live and learn. We use a combination of charts, depth finder, and sight to determine bottom clearance. When extending the board, you'll probably find, like we did, that minimum is always best and a three foot fudge factor is probably safe.

Bottom line (pun intended), keel boats are not designed to hit the bottom, daggerboards are not either, centerboards might be better at it, but can also cause some unexpected problems that can be prevented if you just don't hit the bottom.

Having said all that, we did manage to contact the bottom in Lake Erie last year anyways. It was a rock we hit with the prop while coming into a beach. And from that I suppose we can conclude that almost all boats have problems when hitting bottom.

[craiglaforce]

This was the concern I expressed about the M even when it was being discussed prior to its entry to the market.

A long time ago (in a galaxy, far , far, no wait, it was here) I had a daggerboard AMF puffer that I would sail on lake Erie and Ontario. It was a great little boat and would plane at about 14 mph in a good wind. The hull weighed only about 140 lbs and I carried no more than 220 lbs including me at the time.

I was sailing in rough conditions from the Canadian side of Lake Erie one day and hit a rock about a mile offshore from a point of land. The boat stopped dead and I almost went swimming. Broke the wooden daggerboard and barely made it back to shore (I didn't have a motor back then).

With the extra weight of the mac, you probably would not feel much of anything from the impact and the board would just shear off or rip loose from the ropes or cables that hold it.

I was even guessing that Roger came up with some innovative cool way to have a daggerboard at a slight forward angle so that it would kick/slide up if it hit bottom. After all he is a pretty innovative type guy, with aircraft design background. And some of the high tech fighters were being designed with forward swept wings to create ultra-hi maneuverablity. But this was not the case here.

If he developed this boat for California deep water sailing, it is probably fine to have the daggerboard to pick up a little performance, but it seems like every place I have sailed, there is a 100% chance of hitting bottom several times a year. Now with my kickup rudders, I am not at all careful about avoiding the shallows and they handle the occasional bottom bumping just fine.

Is there at least a way to make the board float or have some type of retieval method iif it breaks off? If it failed by simply breaking loose from the line, you probably have a perfectly fixable board laying on the bottom.
Maybe run a thin line from the bottom of the daggerboard to the stern of the boat and either have it cleated there or maybe just tied to a little crab trap float that would rip loose from a velcro mounting if the board went for an excursion. Actually I think that might be a good idea, no?

[Jim Bunnell]

Thanks for the replies and sympathy, guys.

Mark - thanks for the link.

Dave - reading Joe's story, it sounds like the centerboard setup has it's problems too.

Joe - thanks for sharing. It doesn't REALLY make me less stupid, but it makes me feel that way.

Craig - interesting idea about recovery. I would think a line from the board to the stern would, at some stage of board deployment, have a chance of fouling the prop. However, the way the board goes straight out of the bottom of the boat, a float might be rigged to simply slide down the daggerboard well after it. I'll have to give it some thought.

Jim

[craiglaforce]

Good idea!

THe little orange H shaped crab trap float I am thinking about is designed to unwind the line off the float when tossed in the water with a weight at the other end. If you just sit the float on top of the board it should unwind itelf after going underwater.

[bscott]

Its all about being a good sailer---Joe said it best. One advantage of an internally ballasted dinghy is that you can raise the board, reduce sail, and navigate you way over thin water.

I have grounded heavy keel boats and can testify that it becomes serious business when this happens. Keels bend/break---keel bolts leak---and you are SOL for an extended period of time. So, if you have sailing experience, you know the consequences and act accordingly.

A major ingrediant of sailing is navigating----charts----wind----tide---other boats. We can not always go where we want without tacking numerous times----thus the Mac with ponies for those of us that just want to "get there" without the inconvience of the wind.

Lets face it, the wind is free but parts are expensive.

[Joe 26M Time Warp]

Jim, let us know how much it costs for a new board.

I guess having a MOB button on your GPS seems like another good way to recover a daggerboard, especially in shallow water.

We first heard of the second "safety line" when we picked the boat (358) up at Bill's. Both of us scoffed slightly at the additional rope flopping around the deck rigged from the factory. Hull #32 had only one line.

I like the retrieval line ideas. Maybe some sort of alarm. A limit switch, or even a bell would be cool also.

Lets face it, the wind is free but parts are expensive.

I still find it surprising that the board doesn't have a positive stop, so it can't fall out the bottom.
It could be that the forces required to break the daggerboard housing add up to less than the force required to tip the nose down enough, so the board pulls out instead of breaking something. But I kind of doubt it. Chances are you'd be heeling and the stupid rope just breaks. Slip. Gone.

Why isn't there at least a safety bracket you remove to extract the board out the bottom?

[RBuckingham]

I lost my daggerboard also. The washer bent and the washer and knot slipped through the block, and the board went bye bye. My hull is 112, with no safety line. Macgregor sent a new board, cost around $200 plus shipping. Tell Macgregor you have an early boat without a safety line. They reimbursed me for the board after I let them know. Also, have them send a new plate that covers the daggerboard opening. It will have the extra hole drilled for the safety line. I replaced the lines that came with the new board with extremely strong lines from my local marine store. The new lines cost around $30, but I figured that would be my best insurance. The safety line does not seem to get in the way of anything. The only hassle in replacing the board is that you have to step the mast.

[Don B]

In the Marina I am in where there are plenty of different style 28 foot and up sailboats I have been told that almost everyone has run aground at least once. There is a lot of shallow water locations here and this is one reason we chose the 26X. Most people complain that they just had to wait for high tide or had to call someone to pull them off but I have yet to hear of anyone sustaining damage. This is Oriental,NC if anyone cares.

On the other hand I was sailing a small Sunfish rigged Fibreglass 15 footer with center "daggerboard" made of wood. I hit a rock under full sail and almost was thrown over board by the impact. It didn't break the board but put a good size dent in it. This got me looking for my next boat to have a swing keel.

I guess it would be complicated but why can't someone make a spring loaded hinged dagger board ? One that will stay rigid until it impacts something and than will temporarily kick back.

I guess I was hoping the M had some magic also. Depth finders and charts are great but.....

-Don B