Rudders past limits: Snap! Pop!

[They Theirs]

We salute the captain of "Rusalka" for upgrading, testing the limitations, and most of all for sharing his adventure.

It is possible Delevi has outgrown his ride, on the quest for more performance. I surely would miss his grit for sailing a Mac. I especially enjoyed “Rusalka’s” voyage under the Golden Gate, the pick-up challenge with a larger keelboat, and so many others…we cannot get enough! The experimental rudders should be considered expendable in stressing the linkage and pressing the boats limits. Most of us are not capable of pressing our boats to failure…lets acknowledge his skill and ability. What a privilege to share his trials and accomplishment…. wish our boat had “Rusalka’s” capability…Good Show Delevi!

“Ida Sailors” Back Lot; full of appendages taken to the limit.

[kevperro]

Maybe it's just not properly described as "a sailing boat."

I wouldn't disagree with that.

There have been several new Macgregor owners who p!ss & moan about the Powersailer after having bought it. They either accomodate to it or sell it. But it is wearisome to read constant bellyaching that unfairly compares this eminently capable Waterbago (water-camper), clearly the least expensive boat (per cubic foot) on the planet, to other boats that sold for far more and are far less capable to it's intended purposes.

Seems to me there's place on the forum for people who are happy about the whole boat, unhappy about the whole thing, and like me, middle grounders who are OK overall but have pointed gripes.
I can almost read the above as "put up or shut up". Not sure why people shouldn't gripe if they think gripe is due.

As far as cost: I've never bought a new boat, and never will. So the new cost is absolutely irrelevant to me. Seems I should compare what I can buy, so for my uses comparing my Mac to other $15,000 second-hand sailboats makes sense.

I still think there is a way to have this boat sail properly in the higher winds, and I am not giving up. I think it may involve a combination of right sail choice, proper tuning (I'm tuned for light air) and yes some rudder / steering upgrade.
Unfortunately (or maybe luckily if I fail!) higher winds are rare around here so it may take a while to sort this out, especially since I now know that the easy solution of getting bigger rudders doesn't work.

Eric

I think Joel's rudders are probably your first step. His standard parts are probably larger than the stock Mac parts. If you break them he has a reputation for standing behind his work.

I also have a feeling that since your not sailing in SF Bay you probably will never have a problem. Just don't take her out in the next hurricane.

My IDA rudder and tiller are a work of art. I've got 6-7 layers of tung oil on my tiller and I'm almost afraid to use it. They have beefed up the mounting bracket along with the blade area in my 26D design and if it breaks, I'll really be surprised. I don't plan on hanging out in 40 knot winds though. I'll be headed for shore WAY before the wind gets that heavy.

[delevi]

I don't plan on hanging out in 40 knot winds though. I'll be headed for shore WAY before the wind gets that heavy.

k
Whre' I'm at, you can go from a mild breeze to near gale conditions in about 5 minutes and the to a dead calm a couple of hours later.

TT, no need for all the accolades. I'm still a novice, so let's not give people the wrong impression.

[They Theirs]

Even the Best of Boats have some problems…..

New Farr 40’ “Down for the Count”

[baldbaby2000]

I think Joel's rudders are probably your first step. His standard parts are probably larger than the stock Mac parts. If you break them he has a reputation for standing behind his work.

My IDA rudders for the 26M are not significantly bigger than stock. The main advantage is that they pivot at the leading edge rather than near the center. This helps maintain non-turbulent flow but does put more stress on the rudder linkage if there is a lot of weather helm; however, increased weather helm isn't noticable from what we can tell and they do work better.

[Lease]

The points are all well made:

The rudders on the Mac are a real compromise. No doubt, this has more than a little bit to do with the designer contemplating forgetful owners leaving their foils down when motoring at high speed. The consequences of this with full authority rudders would be very nasty.

As noted by many, the boat is not meant as a performance machine (regardless of all that nonsense in the sales pitch), so there is only so much that can be expected in this area.

To get an idea of how significant is the compromise on the Mac, the following picture is from a 16' trailer sailer class that I used to sail:



Notice the substantial rudder stock and the large, balanced blade. These boats would do 13 knots or more on a reach, but you had to have both crew hiking hard to keep the rudder from being overloaded. Now imagine that compared to the foils on the Mac, and the brackets that hold them and you get an idea of how small and light they really are.

Regarding the imprecise steering, that is another issue altogether. I personally don't feel comfortable with the wheel when sailing (particularly racing), nor the way that it promotes the skipper to sit well back.

This is not hard to fix however, and I am currently contemplating a mod that is based on an emergency steering mod in the mods section of this site. I sail in events that are Category 5 & 5N (N for night), the regulations of which now reguire a means to steer in the event of a failure of the primary system.

Basically, all that is required is a pintle (or any surdy pivot) located on the forward face of the transom, just below the engine. A bar will fit over the pintle and will connect at its other end to the underside of the steering bar, where the steering connection bolt goes through it. The bar will have a short extension past the steering bar with two prongs welded to it that have a hole in each, to which I will attach a nice timber curved tiller. I will need to modify the steering bar bolt in a similar way to the motor steering disconnect mod that I have now in order to isolate the wheel steering and pop the pin through the tiller to make that the primary means of steering.

[They Theirs]

Keeping the M sailing Fast on its Best Lines, Hiking hard.

[baldbaby2000]

Yes a wheel is a catastrophy for precise, tight racing where you inch your way up, must stay smooth in chop, etc.

I agree, a tiller gives one a much better feel of boat balance and what the boat wants to do.

And maybe ask my neighbor who's a top welder if he can reinforce my steering somehow. He's excellent with metal stuff, including stainless so it will be interesting to get his opinion.

I was thinking this too. The transom seems to be pretty strong on these boats and reinforcing the brackets may be doable. On the other hand I don't know if I have a bracket problem since I don't have the huge rudders that Leon had.

[They Theirs]

Delevi rudder upgrade reaching for control:
1. After purchasing custom made, weighted, Ida Sailor Dagger board.
2. Prior to replacing (Blown Out, Baggy )inexpensive generic OEM (Original Equipment Manufactured) Doyle factory sails with Quantum Performance Sails
3. Running Backs installed and tested to improve forestay sag from weight of CDI Furling. Working to improve sailing closer to the wind.

The original posting photo here:
Ida rudder does not appear much larger than stock Mac issue. Those in following photos appear much larger?

[kevperro]

The mounting bracket looks to be the weak point. My complete IDA rudder has a spiffy bracket that probably gives it a much better stress transfer to the stainless bracket. Notice the large surface area that would make contact with the rudder under load. The 26M bracket looks like all the load would be concentrated in a very small area at the top of the rudder. I bet that is where they break.

[Frank C]

... reinforcing the brackets may be doable. On the other hand I don't know if I have a bracket problem since I don't have the huge rudders that Leon had.

That's exactly the point. The stainless rudder brackets, as designed, are ample for the rudders they're delivered with. Further, those rudders offer ample control, even for 95% of sailing days on SF Bay. That means they are probably ample for 99% of all Macgregor sailing time. There's no surprise that failure reports are nil.

The 26M transom redesign resulted in a smaller stainless bracket, though they've been out for 4 years without any flood of problems. The 26X stainless brackets are yet another level bigger and stronger than those on the 26M. Occasional failure reports of the 26X aluminum brackets (pre '99) ceased when Roger upgraded to stainless brackets on the '99 26X (and some '98s). Some users have pictured their aluminum reinforcements in MacMods.

We can sail San Francisco safely with just the standard factory-issue rudders on most days of the year. Our debate of larger rudders was just to make it a little easier to hold a course ... a really good sailor might not even ask. Leon's bracket was bent for obvious reasons, an oversized blade on an abnormal sailing day ... even for San Francisco. My 26X doesn't even have that broaching tendency, so I'm wondering if the big blades might have been part of that problem?? Fact is, IDA refuses to even sell the extra large rudders. Leon's mega-rudders were a one-off request.

So ... one might bemoan steering imprecision. One might spend a bunch of boatbucks to improve the steering, or maybe to design a tiller. But steering precision (an unproven need?) shouldn't be misconstrued as a steering failures. Besides that, my 26X can manage a beam reach on SF Bay at 7+ knots in winds at 20, so where's the urgency for rudder improvement. The real deficiency on the boat is in sail controls to flatten the mainsail in 20 knots. In fact, a quality mainsail is a much better investment of 2 Boatbucks than rebuilding the steering system.

[tangentair]

Frank you hit on several of my newbie mistakes this weekend but I am really interested how you get 7 1/2 in 20 knots. I could not keep the boat (07M) on a close reach in 15 to 20 knots of wind and keep the rudders in the water. We were heeled over to the point of loss of control regularly and even when we had controlled forward motion, we could not tack properly. I do not know if the jib (std model) was overpowering everything because it seemed to have the greatest effect on performance. And the rotating mast was often rotated the wrong way and had to be manually moved.
Yes we executed a sharp turn/roll by accelerating while motoring with the rudders down.
Yes we had too much weight aft or at least not enough weight forward and could not trim down the nose motoring.
But sailing it seemed like it needed much more ballast, - I closed the back valve and put the front plug in when there was about ½ in of water in that little Funnel area.
Ron

[delevi]

. The 26M bracket looks like all the load would be concentrated in a very small area at the top of the rudder. I bet that is where they break.

That's exactly where it broke

Further, those rudders offer ample control, even for 95% of sailing days on SF Bay.

Come on Frank. The time we sailed in 18 knots wind with my blown out sails and stock rudders, the boat kept rounding. I was shocked to learn that yours behaved in a similar way. How does that translate to ample control?

I could not keep the boat (07M) on a close reach in 15 to 20 knots of wind and keep the rudders in the water. We were heeled over to the point of loss of control regularly and even when we had controlled forward motion, we could not tack properly. I do not know if the jib (std model) was overpowering everything because it seemed to have the greatest effect on performance

Ron,

Your sails may have been over-sheeted. Also 15-20 knots is time to reef the main. You'll notice a big difference. If winds are stronger and you have roller furling, you can also try rolling in some of the jib. These boats reef early.

Leon

[tangentair]

No roller for jib, may regret that decission yet and did reef the main, got control but lost about a knot and a half of speed and it didn't point as well. I will give my opinions about it AFTER I learn to sail the boat a whole lot better.
Ron

[Frank C]

Come on Frank. The time we sailed in 18 knots wind with my blown out sails and stock rudders, the boat kept rounding. I was shocked to learn that yours behaved in a similar way. How does that translate to ample control?

Leon, we discussed this issue that very day. My boat can reach 7+ knots in those conditions, but it's balanced on a knife-edge. The only way I've ever done it was with the full jib, plus the mainsail (1st reef) pulled flat as a board. I also had the 12:1 vang pulling an inch or more of down-arc in the boom, and the adjustable backstay pulled tight. With centerboard pulled aft by exactly the right distance the boat feels like it's on rails, albeit 25+ degrees heeled. (OH yeah ... Eric's correct, I forgot that I've also reset the mast rake to 88 degrees, rather than Roger's 86*.)

That was my above message ... the factory Mac lacks the sail controls, not rudders. The issue of balancing on the knife's edge ... that's where the question arises of more effective rudders. But without any sail controls, those rudders are fine ... hence, they don't break.

Your boat had totally uncontrollable wx-helm that day because that mainsail was fatter than Rosie. Mine was difficulte, but at least controllable. I still think his big rudder (not the mega-rudder) might make mine easier to control upwind. Now with your new Quantum, add some gonzo outhaul and/or vang, plus running-backs, plus mega-rudders ... you should have gone upwind like that Corsair you're wanting!

But off-wind with that big mainsail ... I'm wondering if those mega-rudders were causing your broaching. When overtaken by a quarter wave, those are just big billboards hanging down for the wave to push aside.
Bet those mega-rudders were worse for following seas than the stock rudders ....