MUW, there's quite a few discussions that may help you...
http://macgregorsailors.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=6094
and
http://macgregorsailors.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=7479
are a good start.
As far as a guard, the only thing I can think of would be to use some stainless-steel sheet to make a new edge (bending a rounded curve into a long strip) and then bonding it to the rudder. Anything that's thick will really inhibit the flow of water around the rudder and change the boat's handling.
Just ask mike
Thanks KMC!
I’ve read lots of details and material for fixing a gash or weak spots and I can’t wait to get my boat back from the engine shop to start. Just having it checked out as it's new to me!
Mostly my concern pertains to the fiberglass bonding at the leading edge. I saw the post where one owner used JB Weld to fix some of his his CB dings.
I had also thought of taking a couple of thin strips (1/16) of Stainless a little longer than the dings (12” to 18” & 1" to 4” wide?) folding it length wise, shaping it, drilling a few screw holes per side and attaching them to the leading edge of both rudders, and / or gluing them on and even glassing them in!
Granted a SS strip on the leading edge would probably change the water flow down the blade somewhat but I think it might spread any future impact events across the blade instead of taking out a chunk of it or breaking it off. Not much mud and a hole bunch of rocks around here!
I would still need to glass the dings in but I hate to do things more than twice. I was wondering if anybody else had tried such a Mod? BTW does anyone know of any after market rudder replacements for the older style Rudders and or Aluminum gudgeons?
I’ve read lots of details and material for fixing a gash or weak spots and I can’t wait to get my boat back from the engine shop to start. Just having it checked out as it's new to me!
Mostly my concern pertains to the fiberglass bonding at the leading edge. I saw the post where one owner used JB Weld to fix some of his his CB dings.
I had also thought of taking a couple of thin strips (1/16) of Stainless a little longer than the dings (12” to 18” & 1" to 4” wide?) folding it length wise, shaping it, drilling a few screw holes per side and attaching them to the leading edge of both rudders, and / or gluing them on and even glassing them in!
Granted a SS strip on the leading edge would probably change the water flow down the blade somewhat but I think it might spread any future impact events across the blade instead of taking out a chunk of it or breaking it off. Not much mud and a hole bunch of rocks around here!
I would still need to glass the dings in but I hate to do things more than twice. I was wondering if anybody else had tried such a Mod? BTW does anyone know of any after market rudder replacements for the older style Rudders and or Aluminum gudgeons?
-
Frank C
Check out IdaSailors website. Here's his page for the Macgregor boats.MUW wrote: ... I was wondering if anybody else had tried such a Mod? BTW does anyone know of any after market rudder replacements for the older style Rudders and or Aluminum gudgeons?
Not sure I'd want a stainless leading edge. It adds weight in the worst place, behind the transom. You'd need to use pretty thin sheet, means through bolts, means the boltheads and nuts will impair smooth flow. If you have so many rocks in your area, you'll end up with a dented leading edge, instead of chewed ... scant improvement, methinks. Sounds as if you'll want to improve the rudder hold-down lines.
This might be a difficult search, but archives have lots of discussion. After each search, look for thread titles that refer to the rudders. You'll see that we need to be "manipulative" to get our Search button's cooperation ... other members will probably suggest other searches.
- Try searching on [ida].
Try searching on [kick-up bungee], all terms.
Try [hold-down], all terms.
Try [hold down holddown], all terms.
Hi Frank
I looked at your links but I believe Ida web site states they only have rudders for the newer SS model gudgeons. Also the search engine doesn’t like me or something because it will only return “No topics or posts met your search criteria” when I try your suggested keywords.
Using the stock flat SS I had in mind probably would not add much to the total rudder weight but getting it to stay on probably would be a pain.
I agree Way Too Much information available to read it all but its fun to try anyway! I’ll probably just glass in the nibbles and leave be until a better solution comes along.
Sadly I still have to get her back from the pirates! They be wanting a Queens ransom no doubt!
So I just got to ask where’s “MaddMike”?
I looked at your links but I believe Ida web site states they only have rudders for the newer SS model gudgeons. Also the search engine doesn’t like me or something because it will only return “No topics or posts met your search criteria” when I try your suggested keywords.
Using the stock flat SS I had in mind probably would not add much to the total rudder weight but getting it to stay on probably would be a pain.
I agree Way Too Much information available to read it all but its fun to try anyway! I’ll probably just glass in the nibbles and leave be until a better solution comes along.
Sadly I still have to get her back from the pirates! They be wanting a Queens ransom no doubt!
So I just got to ask where’s “MaddMike”?
-
Frank C
Sorry Frank it’s got to be my computer! I search I still get nothing! Or worse 46 new articles to read and I end up with 10 or 20 open threads
I appreciate your effort and I’ll keep searching!
When I bought my computer I made the mistake of installing the crappy AV software that came with it and things have never worked right since.
BTW I couldn’t get my Photo-bucket account to work either. That will be what gets this piece of junk computer re-formatted. It’s kind of like ripping out all the wiring and starting it all over. Sometimes it’s the best thing to do but it just takes sooooo loooong!
Sadly it will probably take longer to rebuild than my boat and surely won’t be nearly as much fun!
Honestly I bought my boat to have something to do BESIDES working on computers! It sucks when you turn your hobby into a profession!
May I ask does the “forum decorum” allow for recommendations of local resources? I am new to the Puget Sound boating community and looking for everything!
I appreciate your effort and I’ll keep searching!
When I bought my computer I made the mistake of installing the crappy AV software that came with it and things have never worked right since.
BTW I couldn’t get my Photo-bucket account to work either. That will be what gets this piece of junk computer re-formatted. It’s kind of like ripping out all the wiring and starting it all over. Sometimes it’s the best thing to do but it just takes sooooo loooong!
Sadly it will probably take longer to rebuild than my boat and surely won’t be nearly as much fun!
Honestly I bought my boat to have something to do BESIDES working on computers! It sucks when you turn your hobby into a profession!
May I ask does the “forum decorum” allow for recommendations of local resources? I am new to the Puget Sound boating community and looking for everything!
-
aya16
- Admiral
- Posts: 1362
- Joined: Fri Feb 18, 2005 6:29 am
- Location: LONG BEACH CALIF Mac M 04 WHITE
Compromise sorry took so long to get back to you and I see the others are trying to be helpful too.
dont trust the vent on the gas cap, take the cap off all the way to try it.
but if the carbs have been rebuilt I would look at that as the culprit.
does the engine rev up from neutral?
the small hoses that go to the carbs could be cracked also.
what it sounds like is your either not getting enough gas to the
cyl. (from clogged jet or mis adjusted float. or your not getting enough air
choke stuck maybe? Try a separate gas tank as the one you have may
not sucking enough gas because its clogged inside. (this will show up as
the primer bulb collapses when running.)
could even be the throttle linkage is not adjusted right and it wont rev
rev in neutral to see if thats it.
was the fuel filter changed? bad gas sits in that too and could clog.
Check simple stuff first: choke, fuel tank, gas cap.
and dont over look the prop being wrapped with something.
If the throttle opens all the way, if the jets arent clogged, if the fuel hose is in good shape and the tank is fine, then it should run fine.
Mike
rereading your post I see you can get going if manage to get past 2500
rpm. ok slow speed jet may still be clogged, and change the plugs.
I know its a four stroke but it wouldnt hurt, maybe a plug is bad.
no need to take the carb apart again just run some carb cleaner at above idle for a few min. The engine will want to stall as you do this but keep reving and spraying when it starts to die then stop spraying untill the engine recovers. keep the rmp under 2500
dont trust the vent on the gas cap, take the cap off all the way to try it.
but if the carbs have been rebuilt I would look at that as the culprit.
does the engine rev up from neutral?
the small hoses that go to the carbs could be cracked also.
what it sounds like is your either not getting enough gas to the
cyl. (from clogged jet or mis adjusted float. or your not getting enough air
choke stuck maybe? Try a separate gas tank as the one you have may
not sucking enough gas because its clogged inside. (this will show up as
the primer bulb collapses when running.)
could even be the throttle linkage is not adjusted right and it wont rev
rev in neutral to see if thats it.
was the fuel filter changed? bad gas sits in that too and could clog.
Check simple stuff first: choke, fuel tank, gas cap.
and dont over look the prop being wrapped with something.
If the throttle opens all the way, if the jets arent clogged, if the fuel hose is in good shape and the tank is fine, then it should run fine.
Mike
rereading your post I see you can get going if manage to get past 2500
rpm. ok slow speed jet may still be clogged, and change the plugs.
I know its a four stroke but it wouldnt hurt, maybe a plug is bad.
no need to take the carb apart again just run some carb cleaner at above idle for a few min. The engine will want to stall as you do this but keep reving and spraying when it starts to die then stop spraying untill the engine recovers. keep the rmp under 2500
Last edited by aya16 on Wed May 09, 2007 3:08 pm, edited 2 times in total.
-
aya16
- Admiral
- Posts: 1362
- Joined: Fri Feb 18, 2005 6:29 am
- Location: LONG BEACH CALIF Mac M 04 WHITE
MUW
rudders would seem to be easy to repair, I would re glass the spot after filling with 5200 or some fiberglass patching kit. If it isnt that big maybe just 5200
let the 5200 cure before you glass, the 5200 will act as a shock absorber
later.
love 5200 you could build a bullet proof boat out just that stuff.
rudders would seem to be easy to repair, I would re glass the spot after filling with 5200 or some fiberglass patching kit. If it isnt that big maybe just 5200
let the 5200 cure before you glass, the 5200 will act as a shock absorber
later.
love 5200 you could build a bullet proof boat out just that stuff.
-
Compromise
- First Officer
- Posts: 213
- Joined: Wed Aug 03, 2005 6:44 am
- Sailboat: MacGregor 26M
- Location: Orlando, Florida. Boat in Cocoa.
Sorry to drag up an old thread, but I'm STILL having problems with the engine.
Update, I managed to find a 'new' mechanic, ASE Certified, worked at one of the 'big' shops and just went out on his own. He inspected the running engine and immediately determined it was case of dirty carbs. He said the Yamaha are notorious for this, also said with the latest fuel additives I should consider an inline fuel filter with a 10 micron filter ($80). This would catch any 'gunk' from enthonal and such. SOLD.
He said he may take have to clean them twice, but he would get her running good again.
A week later plus $650, carbs are back on he tells me she'e running great and ready to go. I head out on the weekend with the family in tow, crank it up and sure enough, it starts right up and sounds great. Once ready to go I put her in reverse and away we go. I put her in nuetral, then forward and think, mmmm that doesn't sound right. In gear she's running rough! Arrgh!
We putter out to where I can raise the rudders and center board and between 1000rpm and 2300rpm, she runs ROUGH, then clears out but wont get beyond 3500rpm or 8 knots. I call the mechanic from the boat and tell him, he says he'll come back out and do some minor adjusting. We go sailing.
He comes out and does some adjusting and still the same . I try to convince him to do a water test, but he's too busy!
Two weeks later after many phone calls he comes back out strips the carbs, soaks them overnight and calls to tell me she's good to go. I went out last night after work, started her up, let her warmup then released the lines and headed out. It's still spluttering in the lows RPM's %#@$$%@.
To recap, I've replaced the plugs, fuel lines, bulb, tanks, tank vents open, cleaned the carbs (THREE times) .......I'm about ready to take a hammer to my Yamaha! Anyone got any ideas......
Update, I managed to find a 'new' mechanic, ASE Certified, worked at one of the 'big' shops and just went out on his own. He inspected the running engine and immediately determined it was case of dirty carbs. He said the Yamaha are notorious for this, also said with the latest fuel additives I should consider an inline fuel filter with a 10 micron filter ($80). This would catch any 'gunk' from enthonal and such. SOLD.
He said he may take have to clean them twice, but he would get her running good again.
A week later plus $650, carbs are back on he tells me she'e running great and ready to go. I head out on the weekend with the family in tow, crank it up and sure enough, it starts right up and sounds great. Once ready to go I put her in reverse and away we go. I put her in nuetral, then forward and think, mmmm that doesn't sound right. In gear she's running rough! Arrgh!
We putter out to where I can raise the rudders and center board and between 1000rpm and 2300rpm, she runs ROUGH, then clears out but wont get beyond 3500rpm or 8 knots. I call the mechanic from the boat and tell him, he says he'll come back out and do some minor adjusting. We go sailing.
He comes out and does some adjusting and still the same
. I try to convince him to do a water test, but he's too busy!Two weeks later after many phone calls he comes back out strips the carbs, soaks them overnight and calls to tell me she's good to go. I went out last night after work, started her up, let her warmup then released the lines and headed out. It's still spluttering in the lows RPM's %#@$$%@.
To recap, I've replaced the plugs, fuel lines, bulb, tanks, tank vents open, cleaned the carbs (THREE times) .......I'm about ready to take a hammer to my Yamaha! Anyone got any ideas......
-
aya16
- Admiral
- Posts: 1362
- Joined: Fri Feb 18, 2005 6:29 am
- Location: LONG BEACH CALIF Mac M 04 WHITE
Compromise
Its not an old thread its on going, at least I hope.
anyway boy sure sounds like a very frustrating time for you. With a certified mech working on it I dont think I can be much help. But Ill give it a try. At least I may be able to make you feel a little better. Ok go back and read in this section "vacation was it worth it" from me. You will get an idea of the levels of frustration and where stopping to think things through will help.
http://macgregorsailors.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=7965
First if everything on your engine is to spec. It should run great. So something isnt right. Your mech seems to be focused on the carbs, That may not be the problem. If the carbs are rebuilt right and the correct parts were used they should be fine. Carbs are really simple although they get blamed for a lot of problems. All the wear parts in a carb are replaced when rebuilt. (jets, gaskets, needle valves. The body of the carb
doesnt wear out.
But there is one part that sometimes gets over looked and is not in the rebuild kit. Its the float. The float can have a pin hole in it or is not adjusted right. The float acts like the ball in your toilet, it floats when the bowl of the carb gets full enough of gas and shuts the fuel off to the bowl when it has enough. If the float (tang) (a litlle piece of metal that touches the shut off needle valve) is not adjusted correctly it (in my case) will not allow any gas to fill the bowl. Yours might be adjusted wrong and lets very little gas in the bowl. That would make the idle fine but when the demand for more fuel happens (when you give more throttle) the bowl may be going dry.
The opposite can happen too, too much fuel will cause the bowl to overflow
and flood the engine, at least the cylinders that that carb sevices. That will make the engine run rough too. To check this pump the squeeze bulb
hard and watch the carbs as you do this. If gas runs out of the throat of a carb when you do this the needle valve (controlled by the float) isnt shutting the gas off when the bowl is full.
The mech you have should already know this stuff so Im really guessing here.
But if the carbs are correct, the right jets were installed. Then I would look else where for the problem. Check spark on all cyl. really you need to read my post about (vacation was it worth it?)
I havent gone back in this thread to read anything else you wrote yet, so
tell me again what year engine 2 or 4 stroke. What altitude are you at.
And the last time it ran good. What has changed? Like you use diff. gas
source or you moved to higher alt. or what ever you can think of.
I know its frustrating and drives you to think all kinds of things that wont help.
When was the last time the fuel pump was rebuilt? how old is it? It needs to be rebuilt after a few years. (simple and there is a kit for it)
You will have to at some point give up on the carbs, or you will never find the real problem. Break it down to three areas. The fuel: is it getting fuel and is it the proper amount? Is it sealed (no air leaks at all) Spark: ist it getting spark in all cyl. at the proper time. Air: Is it getting air unrestricted to the carbs? (choke maybe stuck shut).
and check one more thing compression in all cyls.
I bought a 4 hp 2 stroke motor used and tried it out one pull the thing ran great. I put it on my dinghy and off I went. Ran perfect then just stopped.
I brought it back to camp, and started tearing into it to find the problem.
I was in a hurry and thoughts of being ripped off came to mind. Three hours later I had taken it apart 4 times and couldnt find the problem.
I sat back and thought of the 3 things I mentioned above. Then I found it
The choke spring had come off and the carb choke just fell closed. Simple
and easy fix. But frustration will cause you to spend lots of money and time and may not fix the problem.
We also sort of like to think that we spend a ton of money and give it to a pro to fix, they fix it. Sometimes thats just not the case. They get frustrated too and make mistakes. so have your mech just go back to the basics. check all the specs. and it should be ok.
dont mess with the timing or air screw on the carbs they are set and need not be moved. But my guess is the mech did mess with the air screw. so it needs to be put back to what its supposed to be.
keep me posted we will sort this out
Mike
Its not an old thread its on going, at least I hope.
anyway boy sure sounds like a very frustrating time for you. With a certified mech working on it I dont think I can be much help. But Ill give it a try. At least I may be able to make you feel a little better. Ok go back and read in this section "vacation was it worth it" from me. You will get an idea of the levels of frustration and where stopping to think things through will help.
http://macgregorsailors.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=7965
First if everything on your engine is to spec. It should run great. So something isnt right. Your mech seems to be focused on the carbs, That may not be the problem. If the carbs are rebuilt right and the correct parts were used they should be fine. Carbs are really simple although they get blamed for a lot of problems. All the wear parts in a carb are replaced when rebuilt. (jets, gaskets, needle valves. The body of the carb
doesnt wear out.
But there is one part that sometimes gets over looked and is not in the rebuild kit. Its the float. The float can have a pin hole in it or is not adjusted right. The float acts like the ball in your toilet, it floats when the bowl of the carb gets full enough of gas and shuts the fuel off to the bowl when it has enough. If the float (tang) (a litlle piece of metal that touches the shut off needle valve) is not adjusted correctly it (in my case) will not allow any gas to fill the bowl. Yours might be adjusted wrong and lets very little gas in the bowl. That would make the idle fine but when the demand for more fuel happens (when you give more throttle) the bowl may be going dry.
The opposite can happen too, too much fuel will cause the bowl to overflow
and flood the engine, at least the cylinders that that carb sevices. That will make the engine run rough too. To check this pump the squeeze bulb
hard and watch the carbs as you do this. If gas runs out of the throat of a carb when you do this the needle valve (controlled by the float) isnt shutting the gas off when the bowl is full.
The mech you have should already know this stuff so Im really guessing here.
But if the carbs are correct, the right jets were installed. Then I would look else where for the problem. Check spark on all cyl. really you need to read my post about (vacation was it worth it?)
I havent gone back in this thread to read anything else you wrote yet, so
tell me again what year engine 2 or 4 stroke. What altitude are you at.
And the last time it ran good. What has changed? Like you use diff. gas
source or you moved to higher alt. or what ever you can think of.
I know its frustrating and drives you to think all kinds of things that wont help.
When was the last time the fuel pump was rebuilt? how old is it? It needs to be rebuilt after a few years. (simple and there is a kit for it)
You will have to at some point give up on the carbs, or you will never find the real problem. Break it down to three areas. The fuel: is it getting fuel and is it the proper amount? Is it sealed (no air leaks at all) Spark: ist it getting spark in all cyl. at the proper time. Air: Is it getting air unrestricted to the carbs? (choke maybe stuck shut).
and check one more thing compression in all cyls.
I bought a 4 hp 2 stroke motor used and tried it out one pull the thing ran great. I put it on my dinghy and off I went. Ran perfect then just stopped.
I brought it back to camp, and started tearing into it to find the problem.
I was in a hurry and thoughts of being ripped off came to mind. Three hours later I had taken it apart 4 times and couldnt find the problem.
I sat back and thought of the 3 things I mentioned above. Then I found it
The choke spring had come off and the carb choke just fell closed. Simple
and easy fix. But frustration will cause you to spend lots of money and time and may not fix the problem.
We also sort of like to think that we spend a ton of money and give it to a pro to fix, they fix it. Sometimes thats just not the case. They get frustrated too and make mistakes. so have your mech just go back to the basics. check all the specs. and it should be ok.
dont mess with the timing or air screw on the carbs they are set and need not be moved. But my guess is the mech did mess with the air screw. so it needs to be put back to what its supposed to be.
keep me posted we will sort this out
Mike
-
aya16
- Admiral
- Posts: 1362
- Joined: Fri Feb 18, 2005 6:29 am
- Location: LONG BEACH CALIF Mac M 04 WHITE
compromise
I did go back and read our posts and see some of the things I said above have been looked at. And it sure sounds carb related. But we need to use common sense here. If the carbs have been rebuilt 3 times, and they were done right. Thats it, no need to keep looking into that area.
But the floats may be the issue if the mech. didnt check them (he should have (carb 101)
sounds like from the last post you made that its not even running as good as before you started to fix it. So tell me exactly how its running now.
does it still run good after so many rpm's?
Its also a 2002 motor and it should be ok, its only 5 years old. hardly broke in.
let me ask you something, is there white smoke coming out of the water from the prop area when you take off for a few seconds?
I did go back and read our posts and see some of the things I said above have been looked at. And it sure sounds carb related. But we need to use common sense here. If the carbs have been rebuilt 3 times, and they were done right. Thats it, no need to keep looking into that area.
But the floats may be the issue if the mech. didnt check them (he should have (carb 101)
sounds like from the last post you made that its not even running as good as before you started to fix it. So tell me exactly how its running now.
does it still run good after so many rpm's?
Its also a 2002 motor and it should be ok, its only 5 years old. hardly broke in.
let me ask you something, is there white smoke coming out of the water from the prop area when you take off for a few seconds?
-
Compromise
- First Officer
- Posts: 213
- Joined: Wed Aug 03, 2005 6:44 am
- Sailboat: MacGregor 26M
- Location: Orlando, Florida. Boat in Cocoa.
That, you did Mike and I appreciate you caring!aya16 wrote:With a certified mech working on it I dont think I can be much help. But Ill give it a try. At least I may be able to make you feel a little better.
I did read your post and it's funny, we can get to know each other through the posts we all put on this board.
For you Terrier comes to mind
I (purely because of my Irish upbringing) have decided to wait a day or two before calling the mechanic again!
I will make sure again, That I have a spark from each cylinder. I also want to get some more fresh gas and maybe put some of that B-12 Chemtool in there, although I'm not sure if that will make any difference at this point.
I'll also look into this, but wouldn't this leave a strong smell of gas?The opposite can happen too, too much fuel will cause the bowl to overflow
and flood the engine, at least the cylinders that that carb sevices. That will make the engine run rough too. To check this pump the squeeze bulb
hard and watch the carbs as you do this. If gas runs out of the throat of a carb when you do this the needle valve (controlled by the float) isnt shutting the gas off when the bowl is full. "
Not sure how to do this but I'll be sure to mention it to my 'Tech'.Air: Is it getting air unrestricted to the carbs? (choke maybe stuck shut).
The engine is a '02 4 stroke Yamaha 50T, no change in altitude, (just attitude!) I know it will get me out of the slip and into the bay to go sailing, but Grrrrr it's frustrating when it's not running smooth.
Mike Thanks for listening and giving some feedback, we're heading out again tomorrow, I'll keep you posted.
Brian
-
Compromise
- First Officer
- Posts: 213
- Joined: Wed Aug 03, 2005 6:44 am
- Sailboat: MacGregor 26M
- Location: Orlando, Florida. Boat in Cocoa.
Yes, I have noticed this. Not sure if it's steam from the peehole or smokeaya16 wrote:compromise
let me ask you something, is there white smoke coming out of the water from the prop area when you take off for a few seconds?
. I was under the impression if it were smoke it should have more of a blue colour to it.-
aya16
- Admiral
- Posts: 1362
- Joined: Fri Feb 18, 2005 6:29 am
- Location: LONG BEACH CALIF Mac M 04 WHITE
Ok smoke, dont get alarmed but there should be no smoke at all from the 4 stroke. possible reasons are
valve guides leaking oil onto piston top at idle or off. when you start it burns this off for a few seconds. but will foul a plug just like a 2 stroke.
piston ring broke, check compression for this.
over full oil (dont laugh this happens alot). too much oil will force it into the cyl.
run the engine for a few min. at idle. let it sit for a few more then start it and shut it off real quick pull the plugs and hope there is no oil on them.
smell gas ,not really unless you have the cover off and your right there.
4 stroke no steam or smoke at all. if it steams you need a water pump
if it smokes we need to find out why. double check the plugs you have, are they the right ones?
valve guides leaking oil onto piston top at idle or off. when you start it burns this off for a few seconds. but will foul a plug just like a 2 stroke.
piston ring broke, check compression for this.
over full oil (dont laugh this happens alot). too much oil will force it into the cyl.
run the engine for a few min. at idle. let it sit for a few more then start it and shut it off real quick pull the plugs and hope there is no oil on them.
smell gas ,not really unless you have the cover off and your right there.
4 stroke no steam or smoke at all. if it steams you need a water pump
if it smokes we need to find out why. double check the plugs you have, are they the right ones?
Last edited by aya16 on Sat Jun 23, 2007 3:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.