My 26M came with a 150 Genoa so that is what I have been learning on. Yesterday on Pensacola Bay we had a nice SE breeze of about 12 knots. With full main and full Genoa (light load) we were making 4.5 MPH per the GPS. I experimented with furling in the Ginny to aproximate the sail area of a Jib and our speed increased to 5 mph, with only a 15 degree heal (which my crew appreciated).
Two questions please.. (1) Should I give up the Genoa for a JIB. (2) Is it appropriate to only use a piece of the Ginny when there is sufficient wind for less sail? I have a roller furl system.
Genoa vs. Jib
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trumpetguy
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NiceAft
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Trumpetguy,
The advantage of a Genny on a roller fuller is that you can take advantage of different winds without changing sails, just change the amount of sail you're using. Your comfort level has a lot to do with when you furl in some of the Genny.
Are you sure you didn't have your Genoa hanked in too much (pulled tight), or vice versa? Sail shape is important.
Ray
The advantage of a Genny on a roller fuller is that you can take advantage of different winds without changing sails, just change the amount of sail you're using. Your comfort level has a lot to do with when you furl in some of the Genny.
Are you sure you didn't have your Genoa hanked in too much (pulled tight), or vice versa? Sail shape is important.
Ray
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baldbaby2000
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If I had to pick one or the other on the M it would depend on the winds I normally see. I tend to sail in gusty conditions and prefer the jib most of the time; the boat handles the gusts better. The jib will without a doubt will outperform the 150% Genoa furled to a similar sail area especially going upwind. The jib will probably let you point higher. You might consider getting a foam luff piece on the Genoa if that's your primary headsail. That will improve it's shape when it's furled.
If the boat heels too much it will be slower and have more leeway and weather helm none of which are good.
If the boat heels too much it will be slower and have more leeway and weather helm none of which are good.
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Craig LaForce
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baldbaby2000
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I don't have a foam luff piece but have talked to sailmakers about it. I'm not sure the exact material but it's sewn into the sail right behind the luff and causes the furled sail to have a flatter shape. There is general agreement that it results in a significant improvement in the performance of the partially furled sail. I don't know if the unfurled performance takes a hit or not but I think for the most part it's a net gain for a modest price.
You did not mention your "point of sail" Trumpet..Lets go over them.
Close hauled. Sailing upwind as close to the wind as you can get and still maintain decent headway.
Close Reach. Upwind, but with the sails sheeted out a little..
Beam Reach. Sailing at 90 degrees to the wind. The wind is on the beam and the sails are sheeted out almost half way..
Broad Reach. Now you are sailing downwind with the breeze coming over the stern quarter. Sails trimmed way out. With most sailboats, this is the fastest point of sail.
Running. Sailing downwind. The most comfortable point of sail. Sails trimmed all the way out. Sometimes, you can run "Wing & Wing, the jib or Genoa on one side and the main sheeted on the other. Be very careful of an accidental jibe if the wind shifts or you let the boat turn, allowing the boom to switch sides uncontrollably.
12 knots of wind may have been a little too much for a 150% Genny, but most sailboats can use a 150 with that breeze..Try attaching some "tell-tales" on your sails. These little strips of light fabric will help you properly trim your sales. In the meantime, try this method. Set your course by sight or compass. Loosen the jib sheet until the leading edge, the luft, starts to flutter, then sheet in just a little to so the sail is smooth. Do the same for the main. Watch the area about a foot behind the mast and watch for that flutter to develop, then sheet in just enough to smooth the sail. This technique should give you your best upwind speed and least amount of heel..The Genny, properly trimmed, should outperform the working jib in lighter air. The reason being it overlaps the main and greatly improves the effectiveness of that sail by directing and accelerating the breeze through the "slot", the area between the two sails, increasing the lift.. Sail trim is important on ALL points of sail, but it's critical if you are sailing upwind, beating. When you are happy with your speed and heel, how does the wheel feel? What would happen if you let go of it? If the boat wants to turn quickly upwind, that's "weather helm". The boat want to turn to weather. Most sailboats are rigged so there is always a LITTLE of this pull on the wheel. If it's more than you like, release the mainsail a little to take some of the pressure off. The other way, the boat want to "falloff" by itself, is called "lee helm". Release the jib sheet a little or reduce that sails area to get the boat back in trim, neutral helm, bounding along. When you think it might be time to reef, (learn how to do this quickly and without fuss) it's usually past time to reef..An overpowered sailboat quickly becomes a dangerous handful..
Close hauled. Sailing upwind as close to the wind as you can get and still maintain decent headway.
Close Reach. Upwind, but with the sails sheeted out a little..
Beam Reach. Sailing at 90 degrees to the wind. The wind is on the beam and the sails are sheeted out almost half way..
Broad Reach. Now you are sailing downwind with the breeze coming over the stern quarter. Sails trimmed way out. With most sailboats, this is the fastest point of sail.
Running. Sailing downwind. The most comfortable point of sail. Sails trimmed all the way out. Sometimes, you can run "Wing & Wing, the jib or Genoa on one side and the main sheeted on the other. Be very careful of an accidental jibe if the wind shifts or you let the boat turn, allowing the boom to switch sides uncontrollably.
12 knots of wind may have been a little too much for a 150% Genny, but most sailboats can use a 150 with that breeze..Try attaching some "tell-tales" on your sails. These little strips of light fabric will help you properly trim your sales. In the meantime, try this method. Set your course by sight or compass. Loosen the jib sheet until the leading edge, the luft, starts to flutter, then sheet in just a little to so the sail is smooth. Do the same for the main. Watch the area about a foot behind the mast and watch for that flutter to develop, then sheet in just enough to smooth the sail. This technique should give you your best upwind speed and least amount of heel..The Genny, properly trimmed, should outperform the working jib in lighter air. The reason being it overlaps the main and greatly improves the effectiveness of that sail by directing and accelerating the breeze through the "slot", the area between the two sails, increasing the lift.. Sail trim is important on ALL points of sail, but it's critical if you are sailing upwind, beating. When you are happy with your speed and heel, how does the wheel feel? What would happen if you let go of it? If the boat wants to turn quickly upwind, that's "weather helm". The boat want to turn to weather. Most sailboats are rigged so there is always a LITTLE of this pull on the wheel. If it's more than you like, release the mainsail a little to take some of the pressure off. The other way, the boat want to "falloff" by itself, is called "lee helm". Release the jib sheet a little or reduce that sails area to get the boat back in trim, neutral helm, bounding along. When you think it might be time to reef, (learn how to do this quickly and without fuss) it's usually past time to reef..An overpowered sailboat quickly becomes a dangerous handful..
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trumpetguy
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GENOA VS. JIB
Fairwinds. I am a new sailor and learning by doing so the points of sail you refer to are new to me. The wind was from the southeast and my course was 180 so I guess that would be close hauled as I had the main and the genoa as tight as they would get. As I fell off the boat would heal more and more and as we are novices we stick to around 15 degrees as a comfort level. I'm sure this will change as we learn more about sailing and our boat.
I believe the concensus here is to stick with the 150 Genny, and use the furler to adjust to wind conditions.
BTW. I did install the single line reefing system, and halyard aft as sold by Blue Water Yachts. Also added the gear for controlling the Jib sheets from the cockpit from Helley-Hansen. Makes life much easier, and should reefing time occur (and it will) this will make the job at least a bit safer.
Thanks to all for your comments.
I believe the concensus here is to stick with the 150 Genny, and use the furler to adjust to wind conditions.
BTW. I did install the single line reefing system, and halyard aft as sold by Blue Water Yachts. Also added the gear for controlling the Jib sheets from the cockpit from Helley-Hansen. Makes life much easier, and should reefing time occur (and it will) this will make the job at least a bit safer.
Thanks to all for your comments.
That's how you learn. By experimenting. Try this. Sheet your sails in tight. slowly work the boat into the wind until she looses all speed and falls off on her own. bring her back up again but this time, steer to maintain a little headway. Now you are "pinching", a little above "close hauled". Note the compass heading. Release the mainsheet so the boom swings out maybe 2' from where you had it. Let out about 2' of jib sheet and repeat the hardening up process. Can you still make your previous course? Is your speed better? Let the sheets out a little more and try again. You will find a sweet spot where you are making decent progress upwind and the boat speed is good. In a 12 knot breeze, with the Genny all the way out, on a close reach, you should easily coax your Mac up to 5-6 knots..On a beam reach, 6-7 knots..Sails should be run out just to the point where they luft, the leading edge stalls, then sheet them in just a little. The tell-tales I mentioned will let you see that point of stalling, making precise sail trim much easier..
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March
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Looking at NiceAft's diagram, you'll see that the foot of the sail shout follow roughly the bisecting line that divides the angle between the wind's direction and your heading. If your sails were as tight as they would get, the angle seems to narrow. You should perhaps have let out the sails a little, instead of tightning them. Your boat was heeling excessively, right? That seems to me, again, that you should have released the sails a smidge. Seems like the wind's power was wasted heeling your boat, instead of "sucking it forward" (I apologise for the lack of proper terminology. I too am learning the ropes). Once you furled the genoa, the exposed area of teh sail was reduced, healing was reduced, which resulted in a better performance. It's not so much that he jib works better than the genoa, but the combination of factors resulted in a better performance with a smaller sail.
Just a thought--or maybe I am trying to convince myself that replacing the jib with a furling genny is a real good idea....
Just a thought--or maybe I am trying to convince myself that replacing the jib with a furling genny is a real good idea....
Last edited by March on Mon Mar 26, 2007 9:02 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Dimitri-2000X-Tampa
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Some good advice in this thread. For those who have never sailed a Mac though, be aware that there are two different sets of cars for the jib and the genny. Also, the Mac has no side decks and the shrouds are mounted right on the hull edge, not through the side decks like many other sailboats. this means that with a Genny, you can't sheet it in any further than the outboard shrouds which are at the full hull width. When using the jib, not only does the sail have a better shape, but you are sheeting from the jib cars which are considerably inboard from the Genoa cars and inside of the shrouds. This makes the boat point much higher than with the Genny.
Close hauling is not so great in a Mac, but there are some very obvious reasons for that. A keelboat has much more resistance to leeway since the keel is so much larger than the CB or DB of a Mac powersailor. Also, because it is about half as heavy as a comparable sized keelboat, it has much less inertia which is important for making progress upwind, especially with waves. These are the tradeoffs in order to make for a super shallow draft and trailerability.
Those tradeoffs can sure come in handy though. I almost got stuck behind a very long sandbar near Pinellas point last week. If I had to stay close to shore, I probably would have needed to deviate a few miles from my desired course. But I found a small break in the sandbar where the water was maybe 12-18 inches deep. I never took down my sails, just lifted the rudders all the way, and raised the CB until it was just a little skeg. Tilted the motor up as much as I could and blasted right through that little hole and out into the deeper water and back on course again. If I had gotten stuck, I would simply have had to tilt the motor all the way out, and then let the sails just blow me back downwind where I came from. It is moments like this when I'm really happy I have a Mac instead of my old keelboat...a lot more options.
Close hauling is not so great in a Mac, but there are some very obvious reasons for that. A keelboat has much more resistance to leeway since the keel is so much larger than the CB or DB of a Mac powersailor. Also, because it is about half as heavy as a comparable sized keelboat, it has much less inertia which is important for making progress upwind, especially with waves. These are the tradeoffs in order to make for a super shallow draft and trailerability.
Those tradeoffs can sure come in handy though. I almost got stuck behind a very long sandbar near Pinellas point last week. If I had to stay close to shore, I probably would have needed to deviate a few miles from my desired course. But I found a small break in the sandbar where the water was maybe 12-18 inches deep. I never took down my sails, just lifted the rudders all the way, and raised the CB until it was just a little skeg. Tilted the motor up as much as I could and blasted right through that little hole and out into the deeper water and back on course again. If I had gotten stuck, I would simply have had to tilt the motor all the way out, and then let the sails just blow me back downwind where I came from. It is moments like this when I'm really happy I have a Mac instead of my old keelboat...a lot more options.
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Craig LaForce
- First Officer
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For heading upwind, the jib is the best bet, since it has a better sheeting angle on the cabin top instead of outside everything to the back rail.
For high winds the jib is also better. If you add these conditions up, it probably amounts to over 80% of the sailing for most folks. That is why I keep the jib on the furler.
The big Genoa is best when sailing off the wind, and for that purpose, it can be easily free flown like a spinnaker with the spare jib halyard, and a second set of sheets.
Just something to consider. the genoa is a lot of fun on the furler also, but I had trouble getting it to point worth a darn. Pulls like a freight train though when off the wind.
For high winds the jib is also better. If you add these conditions up, it probably amounts to over 80% of the sailing for most folks. That is why I keep the jib on the furler.
The big Genoa is best when sailing off the wind, and for that purpose, it can be easily free flown like a spinnaker with the spare jib halyard, and a second set of sheets.
Just something to consider. the genoa is a lot of fun on the furler also, but I had trouble getting it to point worth a darn. Pulls like a freight train though when off the wind.