ablative paint questions

[Gazmn]

Hi All,

While I'm still waiting for my repower on my 26X, I asked the Mech for a bottom coat. I moored my - new to me - "old 97" for a month. In which time all of the ablative paint she had from previous owner has slid away, leaving a somewhat greenish/ blue bottom coat. Is this some kind of pre-coating. I'm asking because I want to recoat her and raise the paint line to above or at my black stripe. I get that dirt line up to there and it looks horrible. Since I'm going to continue mooring, I figure the higher paint, the better.

So, what I'm asking [now] is:
1. He wants to prep with a sander. Should I let him is this standard procedure?

2. Is there some sort of pre coat that should go on to protect the hull should the ablative wear all the way down again?

3. Is $425 a lot to pay for a bottom coat in NYC/ LI area?

4. Is there anything special I should also request.

5. Should I have done it myself??


Thanx,
-Gaz

[James V]

Check this out - http://macgregorsailors.com/articles/bo ... inting.php

[Andy26M]

There are two possibilities for the alternate color you are seeing, I think:

1) An epoxy barrier coat which is put on before the anti-fouling paint to prevent osmosis-based blister formation.

2) Ablative paint is designer to wear or slough off continuously, so is generally applied in several layers. In order to have a gage on how much paint is left, many bottom painters make the first coat a different color - that way you can tell when you are down to only one coat's thickness left.


As to doing it yourself - at the beginning of my second season I had several spots on the bottom where I could see the first layer showing through (I have one coat of blue under 2 coats of black). These were spots like where the boat rests on the bunks and rubs off the bottom paint, or where I had run it up on a beach, etc. So I decided to fix them myself and just add a light new coat over the old to make it look nice and fresh. This meant a light sanding of the entire bottom of the boat - which I decided to do by hand because I wanted to roughen up the surface only, not take all the soft paint off - followed by spotting out the fixes and then a full smooth coat.
To make the story short - having spent 3 days lying on my back under that boat - I will never do that again. That paint sanded off finer than baby powder (can you say "every crack and orifice"?) and every angle on the bottom of the boat seemed awkward and uncomfortable. If you can get someone else to do it for a reasonable price, I'd recommend going that route. If you do do it yourself - I had good goggles and a respirator, but should also have had full-body disposable coveralls (I wound up just throwing the clothes I wore away).

- Andy26M

[kmclemore]

I agree with the epoxy paint idea - definitely a good idea - and it's good to have a different color first layer as well.

Also, ablative paint tends to be particularly bad for you health. Unless you're planning to use all the necessary safety precautions, that $425 looks pretty good.

[Andy26M]

I've been told that if the boat will not be in the water for more than 6 continuous months, there is no need for an epoxy barrier coat. Also, at some point the materials used in fiberglas hulls evolved to the point that hull blisters became extremely rare (in older fiberglas boats they were pretty much a given) - I'm not sure whether this development occurred before or after 1996-97.

- Andy26M

[Frank C]

Andy,
I enjoy reading your experiences and value your opinions, especially due to your Naval service. But I've never before heard of that 6-months parameter regarding epoxy. Maybe that also assumed some anti-fouling paint???

There have been numerous owner reports in this forum of blistered 26X hulls, and they were in relatively short periods - some within weeks, not a whole season. I wouldn't leave my 26X in any water beyond a one month duration, cold, warm, salt or sweet. Further, I'd wouldn't consider painting an anti-foul without an epoxy base.

Granting here ... maybe this is a "personal problem." My brand new 26X remained on my dealer's slip for about 5 weeks while they sorted out some issues. I was nervous about blisters during that entire time. My dealer even had a diver scrub the hull mid-way during that wait to appease me, and then powerwashed her upon delivery.

I'd love to rent a slip for about 12 to 16 weeks/yr, but can't bring myself to do the paint ...

[Dimitri-2000X-Tampa]

My theory on the greenish-blueish stuff is that it is the copper in the paint, perhaps tarnishing like old copper does.

I think $425 is a terrific price, especially if they are going to use good quality paint (costs over $100 per gallon) and if they are going to do your CB and trunk. It is a nasty job although you may be able to do a better job yourself since you would spend more time on it than a professional would. I wanted to do some CB work (replaced the hanger and line) so I went ahead and painted it too....but if someone had said they would do it for that price, I may have thought twice about it. I think the last boat I had professionally done was more like $700 although it was a bit bigger than a Mac but with no CB.

Frank, I thought we debunked this blistering thing on this board before. Case in point, I don't think my Mac has an epoxy barrier coat. Plus, very large areas of the paint have been completely rubbed off before exposing just the gelcoat. I kept the boat in the water sometimes for close to a year at a time, and even though I had a hull of a lot of barnacles to scrape off, I have never got a single blister. Otoh, my old keelboat never lost any paint off the hull so to speak (no trailering and beaching) yet it had blisters. In fact, I thought it was you (guess I'm mistaken) who said that it was really some mistake in the layup that caused the osmotic blisters, not the immersion factor.

[Night Sailor]

I still have my boat out of the water after having hauled it for a bottom job. Hurt my back so am waiting to heal before getting mast back on boat and putting back in the slip.

It was in a slip in fresh water for the first time ever, in TX for 11 months last year with only a heavy wax layer to protect it. It was scrubbed once per month with DriDiver. When cruising it was always driven for at least ten minutes at WOT deliberately to help remove bottom growth.

When hauled it had very resistant slime and algae growth at the water line and everything below the surface. I used a pressure washer to remove most of it, but had to go again with a scraper to get it down to gelcoat.
I discovered hundreds of blisters the size of this: O mostly in a line exactly under the tubes connecting forward and rear ballast tanks. A dozen had broken open from the presuure wash or the scraping.

A reputable yard that has been in the business for 30 years locally recommend to NOT put on the barrier cote because it doesn't guarantee to stop blistering. He said Interlux went almost bankrupt when they first came out with the Interprotect series bottom sealers and guaranteed them to prevent blisters. They had so many failures they lost their shirts. They then reorganized and stopped guranteeing the prevention. He recommends it to be worthwile it you have had extensive bottom repair work done, otherwise, he said save your money because, a properly applied bottom paint will do just as good a job of preventing osmosis as the combination of barrier coat and paint.

Relying on his judgement and his recommendation I went with his advice. He sanded the bottom, centerboard and well. He applied my choice of paint, Interlux Micron Extra, ablative at $229 per gallon. Two coats overall, and a third coat along the waterlline and a foot below. He guarantees his work, and says Interlux will definitely guarantee the performance of the paint.

He no longer deals with Pettit because when they had failures in the past, the company would not stand behind the paint or help the customer so both sailor and yard were left holding the bag for a complete removal and redo.

For the work done last month, which took a full week, the job cost a few cents shy of $1500, wth me bringing the boat to him on a trailer and removing and replacing the centerboard myself. Other yards bid from $2000 to $3000 for the same boat, but with applying the Interprotect 2000 and keeping the boat on the hard for up to a full year!

[DeMaster]

Boat Test . com has a whats new section today. Told of a product
called Phase Coat UFR. May be a substitute for nasty heavy metal
bottom paint. Can read about it at alltackel.com/phasecoat_ufr_coatings.
htm. Sorry dont know how to link. Amoung other things increases hull
speed per US Navy.

Paul

[Frank C]

Frank, I thought we debunked this blistering thing on this board before. Case in point, I don't think my Mac has an epoxy barrier coat.

Dimitri,
I haven't changed my belief on blisters in 7 years, and don't feel anything has ever been debunked. IMO, blisters ARE due to inadequate layup, but who knows which boat will sucuumb??? It's like getting a Detroit car made on a Monday or Friday ... you simply take your chances & maybe "make lemonade."

Another analogy, it's like that guy who sailed to Tahiti in a bathtub. Just because he managed to get there safely, won't make it a good idea for ME! Same logic, just because your boat HAS NOT blistered ... is no guarantee that mine WON'T. I've seen others who felt bottom wax would protect their hulls, but I've never accepted that potential for my boat. Nightsailor's result after 11 months in a slip, "wax-protected," partially confirms my premonition.

I think the risk of blistering, and the resulting repair headaches are way too high. But now I've seen both Andy and Nightsailor suggesting that epoxy barrier isn't necessary ...
Hmmm. IMO, that jury's still out! (Paul's link, below - I wish!)

Non-Toxic Anti-Fouling Coating Said to Increase Speed 10% 06/01/06

Performance Outdoor, recently announced the introduction of PhaseCoatUFR. This is a non-toxic anti-fouling coating designed for the U.S. Navy to provide a long-lasting, non toxic foul release coating to reduce downtime and improve fuel efficiency. The coating contains no heavy metals and is environmentally friendly, says the company. No Copper!! Cleaning is with a brush or hull speed and wave action. Prolonged dry docking will not cause cracking and the product has up to a three year life span. Performance Outdoor claims it is so slick, organisms cannot stick to it and it will increase your speed by up to 10%. Sounds too good to be true. If you try it let us know how it works.
PhaseCoatUFR @ $299/gal.

[James V]

I'm not sure whether this development occurred before or after 1996-97.

There is a different type a epoxy used that was to prevent blisters, I don't remember what it is called and I do not think the the factory uses it. It cost more and the factory recommends an epoxy barrier put on.


I have heard that 4 ounces of cayenne pepper per gallon of bottom paint mixed well helps prevent the growth.

[Jeff S]

I had my boat in the water for over a year, longest stretch was 8 months. Bottom painted by dealer intially, redone by myself. I don't think there is a barrier coat. 8 months - no blisters. The worst problem was growth on the transducer (need xducer bottom paint) and some around the CB. I had some slight growth with 2 year old bottom paint that came off pretty easy. I had the West Marine CPA (Co-polymer ablative) with Iragrol (anti-slime agent)- worked great the first year, second year the anti-slime was not as good. If stuff can grow on that nasy copper paint with anti-slime agent it will surely grow on simple wax. Bottom paint is a biocide, wax is more like the stuff they put in petri dishes. They key is getting the right bottom paint for the type of water in which the boat is primarily used.

[Night Sailor]

IF the product does as the article says, and can be added to existing paint, and can be touched up at any time, then it approaches ideal at any price.

[Lorne Colish]

My 1988 mac26D and my 2002 26X both blistered and were then repaired using Interlux Interprotect,which was effective in both cases.