Roller furler question

[HERNDON]

Does a standard hanked on jib work on a roller furler? Also , what
is the least expensive roller furler?
Any sites you can suggest?

Rob H.

[mike]

Does a standard hanked on jib work on a roller furler? Also , what
is the least expensive? Any sites you can suggest?

I'm fairly certain a sail needs to be specifically designed for a RF... or perhaps a hanked on sail can be modified?

Regardless, check the private message I sent you regarding an RF jib for sale.

--Mike

[Bob B]

www.sailnet.com sells the CDI FF2 for $370. And you need to have a foil sewn on to your hank on sail to be able to use it on a furler. I have a new 110 with the foil on it if you are interested.

[mgg4]

I think you might mean the sail needs a boltrope. The foil is part of the furler, not the sail.

--Mark

[Frank C]

www.sailnet.com sells the CDI FF2 for $370. And you need to have a foil sewn on to your hank on sail to be able to use it on a furler. I have a new 110 with the foil on it if you are interested.

Actually, you'll need a sailmaker to remove the hanks and add a luff tape (#6). Costs about $120 to $150 to modify each sail. I'm thinking of removing my CDI furler - would sell it with 110 jib and factory-new plastic foil.

[HERNDON]

Frank:
Why do you want to sell it?

Is it really to much trouble?

Doesn't the ability to reef the head sail make up for this?
Rob

[Steve K]

There is a furling system that is made for hank on sails. This is the Harken small boat furling system. This is advertised as a furling only system and is not designed to reef the sail. I knew a fellow who had a similar system told me that a certain amount of reefing could be gotten by with. Sail shape goes south the more you try to reef though.
The harken system consists of a drum at the tack and a swivel that is attached to the head of the sail and raised with the jib halyard. It runs up the forestay. You would do sail changes in the conventional way, but you have the ability to furl the sail, when it is deployed. I'm not sure this is a benefit, or not. The small sails on our boats are fairly easy to handle.

I'm still torn, where roller furling is concerned. I have it on my boat. I've learned how to use it well and sail changes are not a huge problem. I was happy to have the furler last week when light breezes quickly turned into 25 to30 mph winds.
Then again, I think in the same situation dropping the genny and hoisting my 110% could have been just as easy, particularly with a downhaul on the sail (or halyard, as the case may be).
The couple things about roller furling in this case that makes me questions it's value are;
1. when you reef the headsl, the sail looses shape and gets higher off the deck.
2. To do a sail change, with the furler, the sail first has to be completely unfurled and then you have to do several things at the bow, before you can drop the sail. This is untying the tack line, tying on a messenger line to the halyard, dropping the sail, untying the halyard from the head, tying on the the new sail, hoisting the sail while feeding it up the slot, untying the messenger, tying down the halyard end and then tensioning and tying down the tack line. In higher winds, this takes too long and can become a problem. On the other hand, with a hank on sail and given you've run halyard and downhaul to the cockpit, you can drop the genny in a half second flat, go forward (through the cabin, if you have to) stuff the sail down the forward hatch, hank on the jib, go back to the cockpit and hoist.

I'm sure a couple shackles on the furling gear would speed things up a bit. I'm still not sure which system I like better though. (having had both) I think you can usually have better sail shape, in general, with a hank on sail.
SK

[Frank C]

Frank: Why do you want to sell it? Is it really to much trouble? Doesn't the ability to reef the head sail make up for this?
Rob

I like to sail in typically heavy-air conditions on SF Bay, where the standard jib is the right choice (my assessment of 'heavy' begins about 17 kn). In my experience, the CDI is iffy for reefing is in heavier conditions - I don't trust it. Further, reefing the jib isn't of nearly the benefit as reefing the main, and I usually have that done before launching. Bottom line, if I find it necessary to reef the jib, I'd prefer to drop it completely - and I can't do that with a furler.

Basically, I think the flexible CDI is a great solution for the Mac's usual sailing venues and for stepping her mast, but it's not the best choice for consistently heavy conditions.

[Frank C]

Yes, you will need to have a sailmaker put on the appropriate luff tape to fit the foil on your particular furling gear. There are different sizes available . . . $150usd sounds a bit expensive for a luff tape conversion! All the sailmakers I know charge a couple of dollars per foot installed.

Be sure your sailmaker uses a quality luff-tape, as there is definitely a quality-range available. (Furler manufacturer's bemoan deficient luff-tapes.) For the CDI-FF2, you want it to have a consistent, 6mm bead, quality threads, and of course, high-quality attachment. Just from memory, Pineapple Sails charged $4.50/foot for their luff-tape conversion, they strongly recommended some other, minor tweaking, and they KEPT my brass hanks (which only occurred to me many months later) - GRRR!

[Frank C]

ST,
The CDI uses an internal halyard, not the factory-installed jib halyard on the mast. The Harken small-boat halyard sounds similar to CDI's, if I understood your description.

The CDI internal halyard is just a 1/4" line that runs up the foil, over an internal block at the top-fitting, with a messenger line back down to the furler drum. Tie it to the jib's headring, and then hoist-and-feed the sail up the foil while pulling the messenger down. Remove the messenger, tie-off the bitter end of internal halyard to a padeye on the furler drum, and then sweat the luff tight and tie-off the tack ring to another padeye on the furler drum.

Therefore, the luff tension is defined only by the degree to which you can sweat the tack, and by the inate stiffness of the foil. The problems in a stiff breeze are twofold: rotational friction because there aren't any bearings (bearing is an available option), and the tiny 6mm furling line is very small for the ever-larger loads on the sail. As mentioned above, when winds are up, I'd prefer the option to drop the jib, rather than be forced to furl it.

[Bob B]

$150usd sounds a bit expensive for a luff tape conversion! All the sailmakers I know charge a couple of dollars per foot installed.

You are right a few dollars a foot. Mine charged me $5 x 25 ft. $125. And I did mean luft tape not foil, sorry. Bob B

[craiglaforce]

The CDI furler makes it pretty difficult to hoist and lower sails... at least on mine. That plastic foil is pretty sticky. Lots of friction to the point that I pull on the halyard with around 100 lbs force with a leather glove or with the line wrapped around my shoe while I put my weight on it. Sail lube on the bead helps a lot, but it is still quite a chore to raise or lower the sail. If I trailered more, I would look at going back to hanked sails to make life a bit easier. But it is nice to be able to furl and unfurl the headsail quickly without going forward.

[craiglaforce]

Schock,

There is a bit of a kink in the luff foil (plastic extrusion) about 2/3 of the way up that was there since I got the boat. The sail goes up without too much effort until it hits that point. Using the fastrack cleaning and lube kit on it helped a lot. Maybe I'll try and to reverse the bend (to straighten it) on a warm day this spring with a bucket of warm water to help soften the plastic. The instructions actually tell you to do this when it is new.


You are correct that getting proper luff tension is not really possible with this situation, but since the luff foil rides on the very tight forestay, the sail shape still seems to be pretty good. But I'll bet it would be better and point better with more tension. There is also no real provision to keep any tension you can pull when you tie the halyard in place after hoisting the sail. This is all so much easier with the hank on type.

Thanks for your comments,
Craig

[Dimitri-2000X-Tampa]

Interesting point about the size. Last year, I took my Genoa to UK sailmakers to have a U/V cover put on. During a conversation, they asked which furler I had so I told them. They told me that this couldn't possibly be so because the bead was too large. I disputed that and said it couldn't be too large because I just took it off the furler to bring it in...they just kind of shrugged it off.

I have the factory genoa and the factory jib rf, I've only put the jib on once though. I note the same sort of difficulty raising and lowering it. Its not very difficult, it just has to be fed in there just right and I wouldn't want to do it out in the waves.

Do you think its possible that the factory is putting too large of a .. whatever you call it (bead, boltrope, lufftape) on the sails? I would be worried that it would fall out of the track if it were too small.

[Jack O'Brien]

Craig:

Warm water won't do it and you need one hull of a big bucket to get the foil into.

Open top of foil and remove halyard. Get two 5/16" OD by 3 or 4 feet steel or aluminum dowel rods and chamfer the ends. Stick these in the both tracks of the foil at the kink. Heat the foil with a hot air gun until it softens. Don't concentrate it only at the kink but spread heat on both sides over 12 to 18 inches. Let it cool. Remove dowel on sail side, not halyard side. Use 7/64" drill bit to check if 7/64" wide slot has closed. If so, insert 1/8" by 1" or 2" flat aluminum stock in slot and reheat where closed. Use stock longer than area you heat. (Hard to find 7/64" flat stock but Home Depot's 1/8" aluminum flat stock is slightly under gauge. Slightly wider bolt rope slot is better than one that binds.

I've done two foils that were badly kinked and bent in several places. Saved them good enough to not need to buy new.