Full Batten Sail

[delevi]

Does anyone have any experience with a full batten sail? San Francisco Bay has frequent heavy winds in the afternoon, 25 knts+ I am wondering if having my sail re-cut to make it a full batten sail will help in the heavy winds. I am sending it in after the 4th of July to get slugs installed, so if I do the battens, this is a good time. BTW: Thanks to all you guys for all the helpful sugestions. As a realtively new boat owner, I learned a tremendous amount from all of you.

Cheers!
Leon

[baldbaby2000]

I had a full battened main on a Mac 25. I really liked it because it was much quieter when reefing or raising and lowering the sail; times when the sail wants to flap. It's also less wear on the sail. As to perfomance, the boat usually could beat another Mac 25 with a regular main, no matter which boat I was sailing. The guy at Doyle sails said it shouldn't make much difference in speed so maybe it was another factor.

He said they offer a 2 by 4 style that uses full battons on the top where most of the flapping occurs and regular battons on the bottom. This has the advantage of less weight than if all battons were full. I may consider this option. I have read that the full battons help in light air to keep the sail shape.

[normo]

I recently bought a quality, full batten main. My suggestions:

1. Don't waste your money on the stock sail as the fabric is much too light for any longivity on San Francisco Bay winds. The stock sails will lose shape and only add to excessive heel.

2. Step up to a $900-$1000 sail from a quality loft, preferably in your area, that is familiar with SF Bay winds.

3. A full batten main makes sense and will add considerable life to the sail but take the time to get it right.

Good luck

[Frank C]

I sail on SF Bay and agree w/ Norm. I'm sure you need to spend that full BoatBuck with any Bay Area loft, but check with CDI sails (cruising direct) and you might save 300 or 400 bucks. I'm guessing that I'll get something just an ounce or two heavier than the stock sail, plus I kinda like the sound of the half-n-half battens mentioned above.

I was just describing in an unrelated private message that the factory reef point seems too deep to me, even for the Bay. You definitely need a half-way reef point for the Bay, but I'd like to reef to about 75 or 80% of full factory reef, plus another that hides only half that much. Candidly, when the Bay is boisterous enough to call for the second reef, I'd just as soon motor home. I don't think the rest of the boat's really up to the challenge of Force 6 winds.



Still waiting on the machine shop, so I didn't go to the Marina today, but winds here (east of the Bay) have been howling past the house all week. Just went to the weather page to find Bay winds are now 15, gusting 30 mph. That's really tough for sailing.

Since it's been pretty windy all this week, I took a peek at the history page. Here are hourly readings from yesterday, 06-July (in MPH) for my favorite sailing time, summer afternoons:

• 1900 30.... G..36
  1800 23.... G..31
  1700 35.... G..46
  1600 29.... G..37
  1500 24.... G..33
  1400 29.... G..33
  1300 21.... G..26

Hmmm ... gusting Force 8, that's well beyond SCA! Maybe that factory reef point is fine, just where they put it!
(I would not have tried sailing yesterday - winds always go higher after 1 pm)

[delevi]

Thanks guys. Sounds like too heavy a sail is not the best way to go. I heard from a sail loft that too heavy a sail for such a light boat isn't a good thing and the full battens keep the leech from twisting as much... you want to twist in the heavy air. As for the stock sails, what's the projected life span? Anyone know? I agree that that these sails don't appear to be of very high quality, however, I don't yet have the experience to judge when they're blowing out.

Fair Winds
Leon

[Derek Wenn]

I mostly sail the fresh water lakes at high altitude in Utah and have been considering a battened sail with a bowed top or square top (full roach I think it is called) for the light winds we have most of the time. This would give me more square footage on the main but, I am concerned about how it may effect the handling. What do you guys think?

[Duane Dunn, Allegro]

You might talk to these guys. They have their performance full batten main for $625. It looks like that is for a 26X size sail. The 26M is larger.

http://www.macgregorsails.com/

[craiglaforce]

CDI sent me samples of the various sail cloth weights to help me decide how heavy a sail to buy. I think I got 6 oz cloth for the main, but maybe it was a little on the heavy side. Barnegat bay had winds similar to SF bay I think. frequently 25-30 mph in the afternoons.

I was tired of getting overpowered, so I reduced the roach, reduced the batten size, and ordered it with 2 reef point.

I had the helm perfectly balanced with the old sail and the new sail required my to reduce some of the weather helm correction (less roach means less round up tendency, so I had to bring the mast back a tad to rebalance).

In light air, I have lost a little speed, but I can go out now in just about any higher wind speed (within reason) with good control.

If you have normal, lower wind speeds, keeping lots of roach is good, but if dailiy winds are 25 plus mph, I like the smaller roach. Also my old stock Doyle had developed a buzzing flap at the top that could not be eliminated with the leach cord (sounded like a Cessna on takeoff). I did not want the new sail to buzz.

The inverted Vee mainsheet arrangement is also was helpful for high winds. mimics a traveller in the "down" position to some extent, and can be tweaked with a small second set of fiddle blocks if needed to more closely provide the same adjustments of a traveller.

If I was doing it over again, I would also be sure to add a cringle for a cunningham, and be a little more careful when measuring for the new sail to make sure the boom height would still clear the bimini.

[maddmike]

Have to agree with Craig on most of this.

I have a custom full batten Main on Zeno's Arrow (6.2 oz w/ stock roach, but I often sail in heavy weather for long periods). To solve clearing the Bimini I have an extra reefing point 18" above the foot of the sail & a track on the mast to the gooseneck so I can raise & lower the boom 18". When sailing in the tropics I raise the boom and reef the sail 18" so the boom can clear the Bimini; otherwise when the Bimini is lowered I drop the boom to the dodger top & take out the reef (the sail has 2 other reefing points). Also, as stated above batten size is very important on a small boat like a MAC, do not go 'overboard' on them. MM

[Steve K]

Had a full batten main on my 26X. I, with help from a very talented friend built it myself.
Started with a new 26X factory main. Added four full batten pockets, a first reef point, a cunningham cringle, added sail slugs and converted it to loose foot. This sail worked great and was likely the best improvement I ever made to my X boat. Full battens and loose foot is great for an Xboat.

Opinion:
There is no reason to buy, or have built an traditional offshore sail for a Mac 26X.
Too heavy for this boat. Worst enemy of the Xboat is added weight aloft.

Now, a question.
Anybody here have any sails (or bags, or sail covers) from The Sail Warehouse?
http://www.thesailwarehouse.com

If so, are you happy with them?
Good points and/or complaints?

[delevi]

Steve,

What advantage is it to have a loose-footed sail? I would think in heavy air it would be a detriment, but perhaps would add speed in lighter air. Also, when frequently sailing in 20knts+ winds, I would think a 6 oz sail would work nicely, though I don't have personal experience with any sails other than the stock Mac-Doyle sails. Thoughts?

[Steve K]

With a loose foot, you have sail shape clear to the very bottom of the sail. When the sail is bolt roped to the main, the shape falls off toward the bottom of the sail, unless it has a foot shelf. (that's the theory anyway)

It makes a difference with perfect sail shape down low. The sail has more drive, overall and seems to cause less heeling for a given wind condition.

I found the sail to work great in all types of conditions. I will convert the main for my Dboat to a loose foot, as soon as I have time.

In heavier air, the sail seemed to flatten easier than when it had the foot rope. I did build a 4:1 internal outhaul for it. Anyway, I am now a real fan of loose foot mainsl and will continue to use them.

Basicly all you do is unstitch the bottom of the sail and re-sew dacron tape along the foot (with a leech cord inside, just like the leech). The clew has to be notched for the big outhaul slug you install. You web a new clew ring to the sail and attach it to the outhaul slug.

Now, one may have to experiement with the cut of the foot a little. I think we did do a little trimming there. We ended up with a gentle arc in the foot that dropped slightly below the top of the boom in the center. I thought it would flog and flap all the time that way, but it never did.

All my sailing buddies that saw it comented about what a great looking sail shape this sail had. It became less of a bother than my old main and I got so I could hoist it and set it very quickly. It was also very easy to see exactly what the sail controls were doing to it.

If you want to experiement with this aproach, you could get an outhaul slug, web it to your clew and try sailing your main loose footed. If you like the way it works for you, you could then do the modification.

I do plan one improvement on this boat, where the loose foot is concerned. I plan on shaving the slot off the boom and installing a nice, ball bearing outhaul car on a track, if I can find a small enough outhaul car. I found that the outhaul slug would bind in the slot sometimes and I'd have to give it a push to ease it.

Hope this has been helpful.