Anchor locker?

[Frank C]

How much scope do you need to set the anchor? From what I have been reading, it was 1/4 of needed length when setting and then let out the rest. Well?????

Another important element during the anchoring process is the method of dropping the anchor. In fact, the word "drop" is misleading at the get-go. Holding the boat steady, gently lower the anchor to the seabed, and take note when the chain slacks to guage the actual depth. Next, the best case is to gradually pay-out the chain and rode while a Mate is slowly backing the boat away from the set point. This permits the anchor and shank to orient properly, with the chain and rode extending cleanly from anchor toward your bow. I can usually feel my Bulwagga take its own set well before I've reached my full scope.

I arrived early enough for last October's Fleet Week to anchor very near Alcatraz. We then watched untold numbers of boaters, both sail and power, simply "throw" their anchors off the bow. The risk is in having the chain pile in a heap atop the anchor, or wrap oddly and prevent the anchor's setting. You want to be sure these Captains "toss or drop" with plenty of space to avoid your own anchor, and enough distance so you can see them dragging and warn them off.

Naturally I used my Bulwagga in this type of very crowded anchoring field, and later had to shorten-up my scope to 45', about 3:1 in depth of 12'. Any more than that and the Yahoos are dropping right on top of you. Facing due west thru the Golden Gate, we were uncomfortable by afternoon's end with winds over 15 knots, spray and swell and chop. Many, many boats dragged that day, had to pull up and move to reset. The Bulwagga didn't budge.

REMEMBER to LOWER that anchor untill you feel the bottom - it will treat you well in exchange!

[Catigale]

Paul - Im guessing that you have had good performance with your Danforth anchoring mostly in sandy bottoms where it does work well. I keep that same anchor as a spare, broken down below decks. It does take a few minutes to put together, but I do want a backup in case I ever lost the Bull or had to Bahama anchor.

I think the Bull sets easier and harder than the Danforth in the muddy bottom Hudson where I often sail, but cant back that up with anything scientific, ergo another hot air statement. I was impressed that I can set the Bull on the windage of the boat when its blowing about 15-20mph well enough without using the motor!

THe all-hands forward, cleat off, all-hands-aft method is great for pulling the Bull out of the bottom in a simple manner...this should work with most anchors of course.

James - regarding your post on setting, I believe most every sailing reference says you set anchor at longer scope, then shorten as conditions (and neighbors) require. I usually run my whole rode out to set, which gives me chance to look it over too. There is an etiquette about anchoring in close quarters that one needs to research to avoid making enemies while cruising.

[Chip Hindes]

I was impressed that I can set the Bull on the windage of the boat when its blowing about 15-20mph well enough without using the motor!

I hope you didn't mean setting "well enough" on windage alone. That is asking for trouble. If you set your anchor using windage alone at any wind speed, the set is technically only good up to that wind speed; a marginal set will hold against the speed it's set at, but if the speed goes up or you get a gust or the wind shifts, there's a possibility your marginal set will morph to "Oh, s__t". BTDT.

I always try to get an "initial" set from windage alone, then pay out and cleat at "setting" scope. It's the only reasonable way to do it when singlehanding, which I do frequently. However (and that's a very big "however") you would be well advised to always, without exception, back down on the anchor, using a substantial portion of those fifty horses, for a minimum of 15 seconds or more. In fact, I believe the pros recommend 30 seconds at maximum engine speed, though most of them don't have the large number of horses we do relative to boat length and displacement. And you can't back an outboard with through the hub exhaust at anything approaching max RPM.

Many times when I have done this, the Bull has held for a bit, then popped loose, then reset several times before finally holding. A few times, it has failed to reset and I've had to haul it back in. One time, it was nicely hooked on an ancient, waterlogged 4" x 10' tree limb which I had obviously yanked out of the bottom; another time it was an 18" ball of mud and seagrass; still another I had managed to wrap the chain around one of the flukes (see Frank's caution about throwing above which I wholeheartedly support). That time it's amazing that it held at all.

Even the Bull won't hold if not properly set.

[Paul S]

we have little sand bottom where we boat..mostly mud.

Paul

[Catigale]

Oh well, Paul, Im wrong again. Im glad your anchor works for you..its a lot cheaper than mine, thats for certain. Or maybe you have the only one that works well, a Fluke perhaps???



Chip - I wouldnt sleep on it set like this of course, I should have clarified I was using it as a lunch hook only, under close observation in a stiff breeze.

I ran out the whole 150 feet plus 25 feet of chain, letting the boat blow down river, when I cleated it off and tensioned it, the Bull set and didnt move for an hour while we ate lunch.

At night, I would have backed it down to really dig it in of course.

[Paul S]

Dont think it is a fluke (its a danforth...j/k) . I guess after using a no-name danforth for over a decade..I just got good at setting it.

With the fortress...I have found it is set and forget. I have many GPS history readouts with donut shaped areas (full 360) where we anchored for the night without moving outside at all. One night winds were so bad it blew our windex off.. but we didnt move an inch.

I still don't think, IMHO, that anything more is needed than the fx11. But everyone will use what works for them. Not preaching that the fx11 is the be-all, end-all of anchors..Just saying I have had great luck with it and do not plan on using anything else in this region (Boston/New England)

Usually the mud is so thick on the anchor pulling it up...it takes a while to knock it off before I can put it in the locker.

Paul

[Terry Chiccino]

One thing to remember regardless of anchor type, always and I repeat always tie off the bitter end before dpopping any anchor in the water! Terry

[Frank C]

I had results similar to Paul with my Guardian G-11. In fact, it held a 2-Mac raft, overnight, through a storm w/ 30 kn winds - count it up, that's about 4 tons of Macgregor.

The Guardian was buried so deeply in mud the next morning that I needed to snub the rode on a bow cleat and motor across the set point to pull it free. It came up with a half-foot of mud caked to both flukes. This is both blessing & curse for mud bottoms with the Danforth fluke-style anchors. In the rare case that they do pull free, they're usually too mud-caked to reset themselves. I understand that self-resetting is one of the Bulwagga's strengths, but maybe that's just typical sellers' puffery.

[Frank C]

Perhaps foolishly, that was the first time I ever used the G-11. I simply tied the anchor line to a shackle on the end of that anchor ... no chain at all. The epitome of "light weight," it sure did the job that night!

It's fair to note though that we ran a stabilizing line aft to a stake in the shoreline. The point is, there was no chance for the boats to swing & pull the anchor off-axis. Since the aft line went a little slack overnight, we figured the primary G-11 WAS dragged a couple of feet, probably just to a full, deep set.

I've never used the GPS anchor alarm, but Moe's story plus one other convinced me to try it out. Good ideas!

[Duane Dunn, Allegro]

If you have a Fortress you have an advatage not available in the Guardian or any of the welded steel danforth style anchors (Danforth is a style of anchor and a brand) The Fortress has a second set of holes that allows you to assemble the anchor with a 45 degree fluke angle for soft mud. The normal 32 degree angle is for firmer mud and sand.

I don't know about everyone else, but I also leave the mud palms attached on my Guardian G16 all the time.

You'll find the downfall of any of the Danforth style anchors, steel or aluminum, is they foul easily. I've had problems with them on mud and sand bottoms that have a lot of eel grass and kelp growing. They are also very suceptable to fouling with rocks and shells. They are also next to useless in large rocky bottoms.

Originally I carried two Danforth style anchors and was frustrated a number of times by foul bottoms. I am much more comfortable having two different style anchors on the bow that cover all bottom types. The Claw is a great rocky, foul bottom anchor and the Guardian is a great soft bottom anchor. In general, non-extreme conditions both have enough crossover that they work well in two anchor sets. Yet another reason to carry a G16 vs a G11 and a upsized Claw. This expands their effectiveness in bottoms they are not ideal for.

Another note, 50%+ of the time I use two anchors. While a bit more work, being able to position and keep the boat parked exactly where you want it is a big advantage of the various two anchor sets. The Mac is a very active boat at anchor, using a two anchor set allows you to be a much better neighbor. It also allows you to take advantage of the macs shallow draft and sneak inside everyone else in those tight shallow corners all the other boats pass by. With a 180 degree two anchor set you can keep the boats nose exactly where you want it greatly limiting it's swing.

[Frank C]

I recently bought 5 feet of 3/8" chain from Home Depot. It weighs the same as my 15' of smaller chain, but it will be only one-third the lifting & scraping distance - I'll report results after next season.

Even though the weight is the same, because of the geometry the short chain will not function the same as one the same weight but 3X longer. If that were the case you could skip the chain altogether and just put an equivalent weight steel ball on the anchor shank.

Actually Chip, I kind of agree with Tom about stainless chain, but I just couldn't bring myself to spend a hundred bucks on a six-foot length of 5/16" stainless chain - yet! But reducing the footage of rusting chain was still a useful improvement, IMO.

IIRC, the three-eighths chain is triple the weight of my 3/16ths, so 5 feet weighs the same as 15". Further, according to a spreadsheet on John's boats website, catenary performance (testing various Macgregor-sized rodes) is a simple function of the chain's weight. I compared 15 feet of 3/16" chain versus 5 feet of 3/8" chain, and found identical results. Apparently this is because the chain effectively defines the catenary's termination point (relative to the nylon), not the anchor. The answer was equally true when computing 100' nylon rode in 15' depth as well as computing a 200' nylon rode in 30' depth, both about 7:1 scope. His spreadsheet doesn't allow for the size & weight of boat, so some of the internal assumptions might be simplistic.

One important revelation ... sliding a ten-pound kellet fully down the nylon more than doubles the rode's performance (30' depth, 200' laterally) compared with the simple bare rode, regardless of size & length of chain. I think I'll grab another 10# mushroom over at Wally's (plus a long clothsline). The point is that using a kellet so vastly improves the rode performance that the length of chain becomes (literally) just a "noise factor!"

[Chip Hindes]

Further, according to a spreadsheet on John's boats website, catenary performance (testing various Macgregor-sized rodes) is a simple function of the chain's weight.

Haven't found the website you're speaking of, but catenary as a funtion of weight only is incorrect; an oversimplification.

The idea of a kellet versus and equivalent weight of addtional chain totally escapes me. I understand the theory, but the complication of deployment and retrieval seems to me one of the larger PITAs ever contemplated.

[Frank C]

What are merits v. demerits of using fewer feet of a larger gauge anchor chain ...
in my case from 15 feet of 3/16" chain, to only 6 feet of 3/8" chain?

Sorry I didn't have time to go back & find that page, but Moe pegged it. The spreadsheet has no variable for boat size or weight, so it seems to just evaluate the aggregate catenary of differing gauges of rope and chain. You see the greatest differences when comparing 100 percent chain to a mixed rode, or even using 50 feet of chain. But using smaller lengths of chain seems not to significantly vary the answer - except by the relative chain weights.

It seems to me that my smaller chain would definitely be better at helping to limit abrasion of the nylon, since the boat can easily lift the first few feet of chain, in even fairly mild conditions. But with my heavy chain, the nylon's end is much more likely to be abraded - means I need to watch more closely that rope-to-chain union. I think there's a less compelling difference between the different chains in protecting the anchor's set. I'm looking forward to living with less chain to drag across the bow & less chain in the locker next season

"Horizontal rode tension" is the most you can pull (in pounds) before the end of the rode lifts off the bottom and begins to apply a vertical, pull out force on the anchor.

I always disable macros - don't use them. The spreadsheet that Moe linked (in posting above) permits you to zero-in to the "horizontal tension" answer by altering its "depth result" (cell B18, in a trial-error fashion), following his list of read-me instructions. I just found my scratch-notes that I used, as follows:

(Important - reset kellet to zero/zero before starting)
15' =depth
100' =rode @ 3/8"
15' =chain @ 3/16", resulting in H-tension = 51

COMPARED WITH:
15' =depth
100'=rode @ 3/8"
5' =chain @ 3/8", resulting in H-tension = 50

COMPARED WITH:
6-foot 3/8" chain (Home Depot cut me 6' instead of 5') H-tension = 60

PLUS - adding a ten-pound kellet (full length) increases the index from 50 to ~120!
True enough, a traditional sliding kellet seems a hassle, but the ROI looks pretty damned good.
(With results that good, I sometimes might just shackle a kellet onto the end-link of the chain!)

As an alternate approach to boost the H-tension up to ~120, increase the size of nylon to 1/2"
and increase to ten feet of my larger 3/8" chain ... that kellet looks even better!
But, of course another benefit to a kellet is its shock absorption when suspended midway.
I've decided to add a kellet to the on-board equipment!

[Catigale]

Heres a half on topic thought on anchoring

I was anchoring a lot on the Cape last year and got into the habit of clipping (stainless steel carabiner) a spare fender onto one of the flukes of my Bull as a 'marker'

Im thinking, this puppy costs $250, if my tackle lets go for some reason, I would like a fighting chance of knowing where it is so I can recover it (we were typically anchoring in 10-15 feet at high tide.

A side benefit was that a couple of boats came in, and later on the skipper said it was really easy to figure out his appropriate scope since he could see my boat and anchor position and my swing radius! (He then proceeded to ask how I could anchor in such a nice shallow part of the harbor MACS RULE!!!)

The fender also gives you a nice reference point to check for dragging too of course. Putting code on it for unexploded ordinance will make your anchorage private too...hee hee

Downside - it is another line to deal with, and has the potential to foul the flukes, although I dont think thats as a big issue as fouling the anchor line since the marker line doesnt have a lot of force on it.

[Dimitri-2000X-Tampa]

To talk to James' original reason for posting this thread, I happen to spend all my Mac time in SW Florida and although there is lots of great information in this thread pertaining to general anchoring and other sea bottoms, I think this topic can get as ultra-conservative as trailering discussions get around here. The bottom line is we have great anchoring in coastal FL with sand and hard mud bottoms, we don't have hardly any rocks and logs to speak of. We also have very shallow waters making longer scopes much easier to accomplish. My G-11 with reasonable chain and rode fits easily in the 26X locker and has held well in hairy winds and currents. About the only bad thing is the occasional fowling with rock or shell that causes it not to set, but you can tell when that is happening pretty easy. I have another similar sized stern Danforth that I typically throw out as opposed to the way I carefully lower the bow anchor. I think the throw anchor has fowled itself on its short chain about once in 50 throws or so.

I was anchored out a couple years ago in the Shell Key anchorage near Tierra Verde (muddy) when near midnight, a very nasty squall came through from a T-storm line. I probably had about 7:1 scope which is only around 70 feet of rode around here. I was keeping my fingers crossed listening to the rigging scream as the winds picked up suddenly to 35-40 mph with higher gusts. It was a SW wind and i had put my bow in that direction when I got there thinking that it may be possible to get a squall line coming ahead of an appoaching cold front. Instead of my normal stern anchor, I had a stern line attached to some mangrove roots which had been at the waterline when we arrived a few hours earlier. The stern line kept the boat from swinging and the relatively small aluminum G-11 was rock solid and didn't drag at all. During the squall, those mangroves had a good 4 feet of extra water on them which was gone again by the next morning (aided by the crisp N wind after frontal passage). I think if we had dragged, we would have been beached about 100 feet inland the next morning with no way to get the boat back in the water! The rest of my family mostly slept through the whole thing as I nervously waited it out in the companionway avoiding the horizontal rain.

I always had a lot more confidence in my anchor after that event and think its all you need in SW Florida. And as others have said, a big anchor does not adequately substitute for poor anchoring technique. I certainly never gun my 50HP in reverse to set the anchor...maybe 2000-2500 RPM max which probably isn't much more than 10HP. I usually only back it down until the boat stops moving and a few seconds after that...doesn't take too long. Much less challenging than the rocky bottoms I've dealt with in places like Greece.