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After continually being out performed I had another friend, more experienced, come on board, a qualified skipper on any boat. I changed out to my new Main with top two full tapered battens and double-checked all rigging and sail controls. Paid to have bottom cleaned just before departing. My pro skipper had taken the helm and I had just come off a weekend pick-up race with a larger boat and tacked up the harbor to a substantial win. I looked forward to performing well. Didnt happen, as the hanks win every time, no contest, and even with my ringer at the helm, he said before we raced, we did not have a chance with the furler up. I bought a HeadFoil 2 foil setup later the next year.
I like a boat to perform at its peak, but I sail my Mac with the furler, as it came installed. That HeadFoil 2 which accepts the Mac #6 luff tape is waiting in the wings. No Roller Reefing, but stepping the spar (mast) will be easy. I may even install hanks and go with head stay.
I'm with Dimitri on this one. I just don't see how hanks can give you any advantage. In fact, don't you open up a slot, vs the having the jib on the furler which is completely flush to the headstay. Another very important advantage to the furler is being able to reduce sail area in seconds. This is crucial for those who sail in heavy weather and in conditions when the wind can change quickly. Granted, you lose performance due to the compromised sail shape, but you would lose much more performance by having too much sail area. I frequently sail with 80% main (1st reef, not factory reef) and 2/3 jib. I have gotten up to 8.2 mph close hauled in a about 20knts wind with this setup. The boat pointed reasonable well. I think a tight rig and properly installed sail on the furler is important. My rig is quite tight. I shortened the forestay to reduce mast rake, which also made the rig even tighter. My forestay doesn't sag. Only when partially furled, I notice slight slack, but again, it's a good compromise to get instant reefing, something you can't do with hanks, unless you want to go out on the foredeck and install a storm jib. As for speed... if you were to do that while single-handing, you would have to pretty much stop your boat. The boat with the furled jib can keep on sailing, so who's really making better time?
As for sail changes, I dont see how having a messenger line handy would make a sail change any harder on furler than having to undo hanks and hank on a different sail. Admittedly, I never tried it, since I only have a jib & cruising spinnaker. Having the spin, does give you an option for a larger sail without having to pull the jib off the furler. You can sail it up to a beam reach, faster than the genny too, provided the winds are light.
From the Macgregor Owners Association of New England
Roller Furling
The overwhelming choice of roller furler for the MacGregors is the CDI model FF2. This model has a plastic extrusion for the stay that withstands the abuse of frequent mast raising and lowering. The extrusion is flexible enough that it can be shipped rolled up. In order to use it your sails must be re cut. This is because the luff needs to be shorter to leave space for the drum at the bottom. In addition, a sail used on a roller furler is better if it has a higher clew because when the sail is reefed the trim point on the deck moves forward less. It is also necessary to make a new stay. The lower end of the stay can not have a thimble. The stay must pass through the extrusion and drum and the eye in the original stay is to big to do this. (Please Note that the MacGregor OEM Sails are not custom made and are "Generic" sails used on hanks or roller reefing)
One of the disadvantages of the roller furler is that a furled sail does not perform as well as a sail that was made small to start with. As the sail is reefed it gets fuller (baggier) and this is detrimental to performance, particularly windward performance. Another disadvantage is that when raising the mast it is heavier and it is harder to install the pin for the fore stay.
I think some sail maker recommend a little smaller genoa than a 150 if it is for a furler.
On the other hand, the ease of rolling the sail out and putting it away is amazing for someone who is used to hanking on a jib. This is particularly so for a single hander. Roller Furling If you don't need >Reefing<, consider a simple jib downhaul - place a block near the tack of the jib, run a line from the head, thru the block, and to the cabin top Somewhere. Works great, and is cheap and simple and not a hassle come Trailer-time.The right sail inventory is key to dealing with stiff breezes. Strong winds means sailing with a reef, sometimes two, and a small headsail selection in an attempt to keep the boat from sailing over on its ear. Weve seen both the advantages and disadvantages of roller furling on other cruising boats. While its nice to be able to roll up the sail from the cockpit, too often the sail is the wrong size, a furled genoa wont give the same performance as a smaller, and stronger sail designed for winds in the 20 to 25-knot range. That simply increases wear and tear on the sail and causes the boat to plod along inefficiently rather than sailing to weather with a bone in her teeth.
Furling or Non- Furling Headsails
"To furl or not to furl . . that is the question." Some sailmakers provide hardware and sails together, but buyers should be aware of some general principals and hidden costs.
The advantage to the cruising sailor of furling headsails is ease of use. There is an added independence of managing the boat with fewer hands, and often in varying weather conditions. Against these benefits are two disadvantages the initial cost of the system and aerodynamic inefficiency. Roller furling genoas have notoriously poor shape when partially furled. With roller furling you end up sailing more frequently with (much less efficient) partially rolled up sails. A solution to this problem is to use a radial cut sail (Tri-Radial) Note: "BWY uses these very expensive custom carbon laminate Tri-Radial Sails and these words of wisdom on their great performing Mac". Although heavier cloth and foam luff will decrease inefficiencies of cross cut sails, a be better solution is to use a Tri-radial where a lighter cloth can be used for the same strength, when partially furled.
Honest answers to these simple questions are a great starting point when entering the marketplace. Having specific goals in mind, like improving performance, safety or simplicity, will be invaluable when shopping for a new sail. What are my expectations from a new sail? Am I able to trim it into shape still?
Is it for cruising, racing, or both?
Am I consistently falling behind the pack?Cheap is not Better
They Theirs, I hate to sound like a broken record, but you are repeatedly missing the question here. No one is disagreeing that a partially furled headsail has worse performance than a smaller unfurled (or hanked on) storm sail in higher winds. No one is debating that having a furler makes the mast heavier and a bit harder to raise.
The question was whether a hanked sail of a certain size performs better than a furler mounted (but totally unfurled) sail of the same size. I think the answer to that is no and you haven't presented any arguments to disprove that despite the verbosity.
What has been said over and over in this thread (and is represented in the poll) is that the vast majority of Mac folks here believe that the advantages of a furler clearly outweigh the disadvantages. And when singlehanding, the furler is one of the best, if not THE best gadget on board. Heck, a lot of times when just lazily putzing around on a nice afternoon, I don't even raise the main since unfurling the genoa is just so easy. Comes in handy for trolling too...when you can stop the boat in a few seconds.
Dimitri-2000X-Tampa wrote:The question was whether a hanked sail of a certain size performs better than a furler mounted (but totally unfurled) sail of the same size. I think the answer to that is no and you haven't presented any arguments to disprove that despite the verbosity.
If there is any merit at all to the claims for the HeadFoil 2 being superior to hanked on sails, I don't see why that wouldn't also translate to the foil of the FF2 eliminating the gap between forestay and leech, as mentioned previously. Doesn't this foil also increase weight aloft?
I understand that it's easier to change sails on, and that the leech can be tightened a bit more than on the FF2 in conditions that call for that, but if we were able to find two identical Macs, with identical unfurled sails, it wouldn't surprise me if the one with the FF2 had a slight advantage over the hanked on sail.
I think a good skipper with hanked-on sails could beat me if I had RF.
I think a good skipper with RF could beat me if I had hanked-on sails.
I prefer the hanked-on sails.
The main reason is safety.
I say Safety, Safety, and then everything else.
I often single-hand. If I want the headsail doused, I undog the halyard clutch and pull on the downhaul. The sail goes down on the deck, doesn't block my view, etc., etc. and etc.
If I want to change headsails, I go thru the forward hatch. It's pretty fool-proof.
If I had competent crew with me I would, and have, sailed with RF.
When you're alone, and the RF jams, or the sail gets blown-out, what would you do?
Interesting point Bill. The funny thing is that I look at it the other way. I'd rather have sailing crew on board if I was using hanked on sails and rather use RF when single handing
I don't believe I've ever had my Macfurler jam as it is so small and light. On my former keelboat which had a larger furler, it got jammed once in a while. The trick that usually worked was running the furler line around the close winch and then to the far winch where you could torque the bejesus out of the line and usually get it unjammed. As a last resort, you may have to go to the front hatch and turn the furler by hand to get it unjammed.
But usually, the furler should work properly which from a safety perspective means you are spending much less time on the foredeck as without a RF.
I know You sell a whole lot of Roller Reefing FF2 units, and more sails than most of us have seen.
I appreciate your candor, and do respect your seasoned judgment.
Thank You
Dimitri-2000X-Tampa
Heres to Verbosity!
From the Workbook for Corsair Trimarans Guide to decision making and purchasing
Advantage of Hank-on Jibs vs. Headsail Furling Systems
1) Substantially less expensive
2) Simpler and less prone to damage, failure and other complications
3) Less weight aloft lessens pitching moment
4) Less weight on mast makes trailering and mast raising easier
5) Less equipment to rig makes trailering quicker and easier
6) More aerodynamic. Enables jib to function more efficiently (Faster)
7) Jib can have slightly more sail area without furler drum in the way. We think the sailor who enjoys trimming sails to maximize speed will enjoy tinkering with the mainsheet, jib and traveler positions. A hanked on jib would improve pointing, but will require manual sail changes.
You keep talking Convenience, Laziness, Majority, etc, etc, I have no grind on that, I feel the Hanks is the Best Deal for me and a Trailering Sailboat..My opinion. I know no one, and certainly me, is going to bring your opinion around to believing Hanks Point Better, Sail Faster, even when unfurled. But.
Now Why Do Ya Think Those PHRF Ratings Give EXTRA Time to Roller Furlers? CRUISING CREDITS
PHRF-LE has adopted the following cruising credits. The cruising credits are as follows: Obviously, the adoption of cruising credits is an attempt to draw more sailors into racing. It is NOT designed for any one person or boat to gain an advantage. Roller Furling jib +6
Roller Furling Main at Mast +6
2 Blade Solid Propeller +6
3 Blade Solid Propeller +9 And another 2. Furling Gear: Roller furling headsail (+ 6 sec/mi) ....................................................
Roller furling mainsail (+ 9 sec/mi) ....................................................
3. Sails: Jib LP, <140% of J (+9 sec/mi) or >155% of J ( 6 sec/mi) ........................
Mylar or Kevlar Jib ( 6 sec/mi) ................................................................
Mylar or Kevlar mainsail ( 6 sec/mi) ..........................................................
Moe
jwilliamsAdmiral USA295 Posts Posted - 12/05/2003 : 12:44:45
Dave,A couple of thoughts about your furler inquiry and (since I looked at where you live I also looked at your comments about fin vs swing) about finners.What is the general wind condition where you sail? It has a lot to do with your choice of size of furling sail. I sail on SF Bay. Generally the wind kicks up in the afternoon to 20-25kts. Mornings there is almost nothing. I made a mistake when I ordered a 150 for my CDI FF4 furler. I thought that the big drifter size would really help me in the AM and I could furl as much as I needed to when it freshened. Reality is that a more modest size, like a 110 or 135 would have been better all around. I lose so much shape when I have to furl more than 20% that much of the performance is marginalized.Hey Jude is a fin keel and with our wind conditions I can't imagine having a swing. My Buddy Paul's Sparkey is also a fin. We go out all year around. Winter is our rain storm season, and a solid fin is reassuring when we have two reefs in the main and smallest jib up. We also have the companionway covered and our wet gear on, gloves and boots.So, it is the conditions that dictate what rig you should have. Paul has hank on sails and outsails me nearly every time. But when it is time to furl or come home it sure is nice to pull the string and be done.Jim WilliamsHey Jude C25fk 2958SF Bay
rileySkipper USA147 Posts Posted - 06/02/2003 : 20:34:37
When I first got my 25 it had roller furling and a nice set of headsails - 3- that the roller furling had obviously replaced. I went to the hanked sails after having a little trouble in pointing with the roller furled headsail. Wouldn't go back unless I gave up club racing.Tom
Derek CrawfordMaster Marine Consultant USA1644 Posts Posted - 06/06/2003 : 11:50:58
Doug - on "This Side Up" I have a double headfoil and luff tape on all the jibs. The local experts say that it's worth 3 secs a mile over hanked-on sails. It also allows us to do sail changes while racing and still keep a headsail up during the change - it's almost normal for us to start in 15 knots+/- and have the wind drop to 5 before we finish the first race! (Or go the other way!!) I think that the double foil attachment was $180 - but that was almost 10 years ago Derek TRFK#2262"This Side Up"
Sailing Source Forums: J24 Class: J/24 How to do...?: Tuff Luff vs Hank
By John F on Saturday, September 01, 2001 - 11:46 am: My vote goes to hanks.
1. You will get a more uniform sail shape from the hanks. Particularly in lighter conditions.
2. The douse. When using hanks the foredeck can get the sail to the deck with out going forward of the hatch. As a fordeckman I try never to go forward of that point. With free running halyards and the jib/Genoa sheets eased the sail will almost completely douse it self. Simple pull down on the leech to finish the job.
3. The set. Hanks produce less friction and thus make it easier and quicker to get the sail up.
Steve brings up a valid point though. If you sail in an area where the windward legs more resemble a marathon then a sailboat race then you should consider the tuff-luff.
As for the J/30. We have been sailing ours for 13 years with a tuff-luff and have decided to switch to hanks for next year. In the years past we have sailed a lot of PHRF on long courses so it made sense to have what everyone else had. But now we are more one design oriented and feel the hanks will give us an edge in boat handling.
John
By Steven Hartman on Monday, August 13, 2001 - 08:28 am:
Jonathan,
As far as the twinluff pre-feed goes, I've always pre-fed the jib immediately after dousing it. (Rather than waiting until it was time to re-hoist)
Because I had to be up there pulling the jib down anyway, that was always the perfect time to re-lead the pre-feed.
I should also mention my experience doing foredeck work on a twin luff system is actually from years spent crewing on a J/30, rather than a J/24.
By Steven Hartman on Monday, August 13, 2001 - 08:19 am: Hanks -- simpler, cheaper, less friction, easier to adjust luff tension with halyard or jib cunningham, quicker hoist and douse.
TuffLuff w/ two halyards -- "peel away" sail change, where one sail goes up first, then the other comes down. More friction in the system, you usually have to pull the jib down, instead of letting gravity do all the work.
Analysis: I've seen expert foredecks with fast hands make short work of hanked on jib changes, and I've seen (and personally done) some painfully slow luff-tape headsail changes. If the courses in your area tend towards short windward leewards, you can probably wait on the sail change until either the downwind leg while the spinnaker's up, or (better yet) in between races. In that case, keep it simple, do what everyone else does, and go with hanks. But if your area holds a lot of "tour" races, long courses over varying wind conditions, or there's almost always a big predictable wind change right in the middle of your race course, then it might pay to buck the trend, deploy the twin luff system, and learn to use it well.
By Jonathan Udell on Sunday, August 12, 2001 - 06:41 pm:
I used to think this was a no brainer, and that a TuffLuff had no place on a J24. However, twice this year we've faced situations where doing a headsail change really should not have waited to the turn mark, and going bareheaded is just the kiss of death. Of course that's twice in about the past five years, so I'm not sure that the frequency merits the change. There is no question that leeward mark roundings will be far more hairy with a TuffLuff in that the 4 deck (already just a bit busy with all going on around him/her) will also have to make sure that the pre-feed goes right. My bet is hanks remain the proper setup
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I know this is racing stuff, but I was only making the point for the value of the Hanks and Tuff Luff, or HeadFoil2 and the advantages some others and I know they represent.
Hmm...lets see ...so a PHRF rating of 300 for the Mac (averaging the 260 to 360 ratings I see) means a +6 for the roller furler is a 2% effect. The blue centerboard advantage is proven to be at least 3x bigger IIRC.
No wonder we dont care.......Im not a racer (but have raced), but PHRF stuff is really science/engineering on a really bad day.....
On edit: averaged 10 PHRFs on the web and got 260, so its a 2.5 percent advantage by calculation.
My advice? Buy the furler and the best headsail for your conditions at full deployment, either 150 130 or 100 genny/jib.
Last edited by Catigale on Wed Jan 04, 2006 2:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Sailing performance with furlers has changed over the years, and some roller reefing has improved, but not to a point it would be my first choice with my MacGregor. The CDI Furler/Reefer provides convenience and performs for those who accept its limitations. Most Trailer boats can provide a grand sailing experience and the Mac Can Do More.
Checking out the Practical Sailor review of the Mac 26:
They state a PHRF of 240-250. Would have to refigure the PHRF of
other boats to make them consistent with this figure.
PS says the Mac 26 is built with a hull deck joint on an outward
turning flange with SS bolts every 4", this is pretty good. Look at
some older boats, even "name brands" and you find riveted joints,
sometimes "pop" rivets to hold them together while the glue in the
joint dries.
PS implies the Mac26 has too light rigging. Macgregor says it has
never been a problem. Any remarks about this anyone?
Mac specs show Lewmar winches and Doyle sails, could be ok.
Other than the remark about the light rigging, PS has little bad to
say about the Mac26. Southern California PHRF Rating by Mfg. MACG26X 216 216 216 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
What I generally tell my customers, after I've gotten some idea of their sailing experience and how they plan to use their boat, is if you are going to keep your boat on the trailer - no RF. If you are going to keep your boat in the water - maybe RF. There is not one big reason not to get RF, but there are an awful lot of little reasons. I think the main reason not to get it is safety. I never had a problem (CDI FF2), but I'm hearing more and more stories of people having trouble with RF, including a recent story of a broken mast because the sail blew out.
People come in, from power boating, knowing they need a blender and roller furling. I ask if they know what roller furling is and they reply "No, but a friend said I should get it." I tell them I could make some money off them if I sold them RF, and I'm usually able to talk them out of it.
One more point on a Downhaul - If you have a Genoa up, center the sheets before you pull the downhaul. Not too tight because the sail not only has to come down but also forward. This will keep it on deck.
Catigale wrote: ... My advice? Buy the furler and the best headsail for your conditions at full deployment, either 150 130 or 100 genny/jib.
I stayed out of this so far despite early influence reference to my Waterbago(*) comment. But I can play on either side of this scrimmage. Three-quarters of us already HAVE a roller furler, and 8% more WANT one. But those stats really just reveal the predominant conditions into which knowledgeable dealers are selling these boats ... most Macs go to novice sailors whose average wind conditions justify a Genoa. And, the 150 Genny nearly DICTATES some mechanism to manage it, since it can become a handful in a big hurry.
I like Stephen's quoted suggestion, but would modify it to only this extent ... IF one's predominant conditions dictate a standard jib as the most common sail, in my opinion the RF becomes optional - perhaps even a liability. Here's why:
- given your average winds are 15+, the mainsail will likely overpower the stern in gusts;
- given the impact of mains'l on very light boat, a FULL heads'l is frequently best;
- in my experience, I've never actually felt A NEED to reef the jib;
- your FULL but smaller headsail is inately less risky;
- but given the potential for rapidly evolving weather, fully
DROPPING the jib (with downhaul) is more reliable than trying to furl it;
- even it the furler performs perfectly, I simply don't have strength enough to reef the jib in brisk winds;
- IMO, using a winch on the furling line is just begging for trouble;
- given your puddle is prone to 15+ winds, the RF is definitely more trouble-prone, potentially even dangerous.
All of this is completely unrelated to "improving performance." My focus is improving "safety."
If you've ever felt a Macgregor in brisk winds pushing upwind at a solid 8+ mph for 4 miles (read Leon's post, elsewhere), you'll understand benefits of simplicity. It also makes sailing in winds <12 kn anti-climactic. For my part, I think I might buy a hank-on std.jib from Minney's and just stow the CDI and 135 tapedrive Genoa.
(*) I adopted the Waterbago comment from someone else, either here or on Sailnet. It's not mine, but I believe it accurately describe the emphasis of a vast majority of Macgregor owners.
Bill at BOATS 4 SAIL wrote: .... I think the main reason not to get it is safety. I never had a problem (CDI FF2), but I'm hearing more and more stories of people having trouble with RF, including a recent story of a broken mast because the sail blew out.
EditToAdd: after posting I went back to see dealer Bill's posted just ahead of me ... absolutely AGREE, Bill! The excellent points he makes simply punctuate the reasons for his excellent reputation as a dealer - selling you what will really benefit you, not what you think you might need!
I know where you are coming from on SF Bay, Frank (having sailed there in calm late morning, and 30-35 knots in the afternoon) - I agree in a heavy wind locale hanked on is the way to go.
Good point about the PHRF rating, but you are also adding the third category of a luff tape system, which btw is what is used on the racing boat I occasionally crew on (plus pre-feeder). This way you don't have the open slot like you would have with a hanked on sail. And yes, the jib has to be pulled down, it won't just drop....so not all that much different than a RF. I wonder how well a downhaul would even work on that system. So, bottom line, all this good racing stuff requires a foredeckchick or dude up there..in the riskiest position on the boat. I was out racing last year on a brisk day with 20+ knot north wind. The lady doing foredeck was getting tired so the owner decided to do foredeck himself for the next spin gybe....good thing he had his new inflatable lifevest on cause he was trying to push down on the spin pole when a gust literally picked him and the pole up (kind of a lightweight guy) and blew him right off the deck. He managed to grab hold of a cockpit lifeline as he was going by (we couldn't slow the boat down to less than 6 kn with the spinaker up) and getting dragged through the water for a while before he was pulled back on board....but the point is, there is danger up there Will Robinson.
So, all these folks coming out and harping on the safety aspect of hanks...seems like you weren't very well represented in the poll! Sure, lots of things can go wrong on a sailboat...which is why it is called a sport! I wonder if you also follow all the other safety tips in the Mac manual....like always keeping a hold of your mainsheet instead of cleating it, never motoring above 6mph with the sails up, etc.
P.S. Don't ya love that zing when the furler line rips through your hands when unfurling during a windy day?? Unless of course if you forgot your gloves....
P.P.S. I respect Bill's comments about not overselling the RF to novice buyers...afterall, its another gadget which increases complexity. But face it, a novice may be more likely to get themselves in trouble with a big motor versus a RF. You can't very well abolish kitchen knives just because they could be dangerous if used the wrong way.
