Interesting Charts...

[kmclemore]

I'll just leave this here... comment as you wish. My comment is that it's sad. Very sad.

[OverEasy]

Hi Kmclemore!

Very interesting charts!
Thank you for sharing them!

I was seeing something similar not long ago with regard to new vs used cars and original owner retention longevity.
There was also some information on the type of vehicle category such as sedan, minivans, full size vans, sports cars, SUV, truck and pure utilitarian there might be some similar patterns.

I can’t recall specifically where I came across the article but it stuck in my head because of the increased original owner retention longevity. Seems that more folks are keeping their vehicles longer with the caveat being as long as they continue to operate without significant maintenance issues.

Now that you’ve piqued my interest I’m gonna have to look into this more closely in relation to other influencers such as economics, demographics, and generational shifts.

Sorta like golf… it was a bigger thing for my parents generation and of little interest to my kids generation and even less so to the kids following them. While there are still new courses being built there are also a lot of older existing courses and clubs closing or attempting diversifying into other things such as pickle ball among other options. I’m wondering if sailing and motor boating are also being affected similarly….by the changing generational aspiration objectives…my kids are much more interested in experiential activities than in activities that require real estate to store the equipment like boats generally do… something to think about…

Again, Thank you for posting this!

Best Regards,
Over Easy

[dustoff]

I agree. Very Interesting.
I think a missing piece is the median price of new powerboats vs new sailboats, especially entry-level models. There are very few affordable, entry-level, brand-new sailboats for less than 150k, other than small racing dinghy's, day-sailors, and Hobie-style cats. The few that are out there are very bare bones, and once you add a trailer and a few minor upgrades they quickly get over $100k. I think that was what the Tattoo 22 was shooting for, while trying to prototype a totally new fabrication system to keep production costs down. Similar to how Roger innovated production efficiency with the early Venture/MacGregors. It's a shame that they went belly up. I know they've been radio-silence for years now on what happened, but my personal guess is their idea of fiber-impregnated resin-only construction didn't pass the prototype test. Startup and production costs for traditional build methods probably made the whole project unviable.
I'm guessing that if someone could produce a sound boat like that and have dealers sell it with a trailer for less than $50,000 at a reasonable profit margin, it would probably sell very well.
I have absolutely no idea how anyone could do that, but maybe some outside-the-box thinking like 3d printing, AI application somehow to production process, or something else might be possible.

Dustoff

[Russ]

my kids are much more interested in experiential activities than in activities that require real estate to store the equipment like boats generally do… something to think about…

There is much to this. We see this with our son who doesn't "own things" but prefers traveling and experiences. I think COVID added to this attitude, as many people learned that life is short and fragile. After being cooped up during the pandemic, we saw a surge of travel that hasn't seemed to stop.

The effort to learn to sail and rig a sailboat seems to be lost on younger generations as well.
Let's face it, sailing takes a lot of work and skill for little dopamine return. Relaxing and traveling on the wind offers less excitement. The boats I see most popular are "fun" boats that can either ski/tow behind or party boats where people can go drink and splash in the water.

We don't have much in our media culture to promote sailing. At one time there were songs, movies etc. that glorified the sailing life. I don't see that anymore.

[dustoff]

Couldn't help myself doing some calculations in my head on how to produce a $50,000 retail sailboat.
- After calculating 15% dealer markup and 10% Manufacturer's net profit: Production cost has to be at or below $38,600.
- Some key Fixed Costs: Wholesale 50hp engine; $5000
Wholesale Mast & boom extrusions; $500
Wholesale Sails; $1500
Wholesale Trailer; $2500
Wholesale Standing and Running Rigging; $1500
Wholesale basic SS hardware $1500
Sum of non-manufacturer controlled fixed costs; $12,500

That leaves the available production cost of the boat to be $26,100.
Subtract average manufacturers' labor costs of 25% of gross sales - $7830 = $18,270
Once you figure in capital investment, debt servicing, real estate costs I would conservatively estimate at 5% per manufacturer's unit sales of $38,600 = $1930
$18,270-$1,930 = $16,340.
Can someone make a sound fiberglass sailboat for $16k in operating expenses, supply, and other capital expenditures? Probably not without some groundbreaking production efficiencies.
In order for the investors/owners to net $1 million annually, they would have to sell 256 boats a year, or roughly 5 per week. These are sailboat production rates only reached by Roger MacGregor himself, and are probably in the realm of fantasy as a startup in today's market.

Sorry, I couldn't help myself.
Dustoff.

[OverEasy]

Hi Dustoff!

Nice analysis! Thanks!

It’s the reason most power boats went to chopper gun spray hull construction decades ago.
Simplified construction with lower labor cost as lower skilled personnel could be utilized.
Today the process is to spend on front end automation tooling like robotics to do the spraying.

The problem is chopper spray makes heavy boats and trailerable sailboats tend to require lighter construction to function.
Chopper spray gets its strength from bulk which isn’t a bad thing as a power boat is basically designed to pound its way through its operational life. That’s why sailboats typically use fabric layup to get the strength needed without the weight.

Getting a robot to lay-in and conform to compound mold structure multiple fabric layers and types and orientations of fiberglass cloth and mat isn’t an easy task. The flimsy nature of fiberglass sheet and mat make it a daunting proposition.

The high cost of resins exacerbated by the current state of affairs isn’t gonna make it any easier nor will that be expected to change much in the future other than continue to increase. That pushes the technology into vacuum bagging infusion processes to minimize material costs as well as weight and the lower associated labor inherent with vac-bag. (Note: There are also benefits with reduced VOC release and reduced environmental aspects but that’s another topic). But vac-bag introduces other consumable material costs to the equations.

As Russ pointed out the social space has changed. People just want to have the experience for the moment of adrenaline rush to a larger extent, not the time for setup, maintenance and operation or actual skill development. (In some ways I’m guilty of a bit of that in that we use our Mac26X primarily as a cruiser given my physical limitations and that it’s hard to sail in tidal estuaries and rivers.)

The times they are a changing….

Best Regard
Over Easy

[dustoff]

I don’t think I can agree that the younger generation wouldn’t be interested in a sailboat if the product could meet a value proposition that appealed to them.
I think the main challenge is the overall income to costs of living challenge. A young family in a suburban/urban area has to deal with relative housing costs nearly double what they were in 2000. But that’s where the jobs are.
The boat builders are all chasing a decreasing demographic. People with an abundance of excess wealth and time to spend. The cost of boat production relative to the median household income is much higher now. Kinda reminds of the days before fiberglass revolutionized the industry. Only the elites had boats in those days.
The younger generation isn’t going the no ownership route as a benefit, it is that they are forced into it because cost to own of so many things is beyond many’s reach.
Many of the Mac26 features still would apply to a value assessment of a young couple, but would probably cost over $100k to make now. That’s a monthly payment of $800-$1000 a month depending on sales tax. A producer would need to get to half of that to find a market for under 30’s. Especially when you factor registration fees, insurance, ramp or marina fees, fuel and safety equipment requirements.
I really think there’s plenty enough people in North America with diverse interests that if by some miracle you could bring a quality product to market it would sell.

Just my 2 cents

[Russ]

In some ways I’m guilty of a bit of that in that we use our Mac26X primarily as a cruiser given my physical limitations and that it’s hard to sail in tidal estuaries and rivers.)

I totally get it. And you are not alone. There are many Mac owners who appreciate the boat without the need to sail it. It makes an excellent trawler with a large cabin and shallow draft. I'm surprised Roger didn't market it this way. There is no other 26' boat with this much room and features WITHOUT even installing the mast.

Sailing does require a lot of work to rig. I lean on my son to help me rig/derig and launch. Without, it would take me half a day to put it all together.

With that said, I owned a runabout before the Mac. It got boring for me fast. The noise really annoyed me. I grew up sailing. The moment we shut off the motor and let the wind take us my stress levels go away. I don't care if we get anywhere as long as we are moving. Night sailing is something to experience.

My wife keeps telling me one day it will be too much work for our ages. I'm going to push through.

It's a shame Laura couldn't make a go with the tattoo. Boat builders are not thriving until you get to the big ticket $1m + category.

[OverEasy]

Hi Russ

I totally get it with the calming effect of sailing over motoring. I really do!
If we weren’t into the exploring and wildlife watching and only on open water then we’d be having the mast and sails up too

The way the originally designed lowered mast is both a literal headache for me (as I bang intoitallthedangtime) and it stick out past the stern and fouls on branches etc…

I still someday hope to fabricate a custom mast pintle so we can raise up the mast horizontally above 6’6” the cockpit sole so we can have it both ways. What I like is for the mast to be up and easily move the base fwd above the bow rail with an integrated support for the Furler.
I’ve worked on a design for making a furling main sail that I’d like to incorporate at the same time. While it’s something that would be nice to do my problem is my available time, physical capabilities and budgeting. Everything is a compromise as everybody knows. For now we compromise on being in trawler mode with our pretty quiet 4-stroke Suzuki engine (vs our old 2-stroke Tohatsu).

There’s a time and a place and a season in life. Personally I figure everyday is like a gift like daylight that should be enjoyed while it shines. So being able to get out regularly with a manageable dose of hassle is good enough for us at this stage.

Best Regards,
Over Easy

[Russ]

You are lucky to have so many interesting places to explore. Looks like there are many many tributaries and dolphins to visit in your area.

Again, that's the beauty of the Mac. It makes a great trawler with the option to get up on plane and get back in a hurry. Roger was a pure sailor and I assume it didn't cross his mind to market the boat this way. Laura Sharp didn't see this as a market either. The Tattoo 22 looks like it would be fun to use without the mast. Sadly it never made it to market.

This forum has many who have fabricated a "mini-mast" and use the boat without sailing it. How many have done the "Great Loop" this way?

I'm to the point where I might consider using our boat sans-mast to explore other places if towing and launching were easier.

[dustoff]

I've done the mast-less thing twice. It was so hard for me initially to not bring the full kit. It kinda felt I was neutering my baby. However, my use case for doing it was totally vindicated and I would do it again. Essentially, both times I was using the boat as a floating RV/Camper to meet up with friends/family who were land-based nearby. I wasn't really planning on moving or using the boat much, if at all.
In one instance I was meeting my brother, who likes to camp with his RV every year at Assateague National seashore. Renting a camper and space at the park was essentially the same as staying at an upscale motel. But...idea... access to the national park is free (for veterans) and anchoring is free on the shallow bay. So I launched at a nearby ramp, borrowed an inflatable dinghy, and anchored 200 yards from the campground. Got a ride to get my truck and bring it to the park. Voila, free camping at Assateague. The water is so shallow there, no way to safely sail anyway, but no problem for the mastless . It saves sooo much time to launch without the rig.
Second time, we accessed our free transient slip deal from our Safe Harbour marina membership to stay near friends for a graduation in NJ. Found a ramp walking distance from the marina, launch and dock boat in less than an hour, and plug in to power and water for free. Not a bad gig. Did have to use uber a couple of times to get around though.

Dustoff.