New 26X owner, going to need a lot of help!

[svscott]

I'm not doubting the calculations whatsoever and I've seen a through hull removed below the waterline so I know how quickly water shoots in. My takeaway is this - in the event of a mild to severe leak, be prepared to stuff pillows, extra sails, flex seal (kinda kidding), or anything you can fit into the hull hole and then make a beeline for shore!
I hope to never regret it but I don't plan on installing a permanent bilge pump. Although I do keep the portable one readily available.

[Jimmyt]

I'm not doubting the calculations whatsoever and I've seen a through hull removed below the waterline so I know how quickly water shoots in. My takeaway is this - in the event of a mild to severe leak, be prepared to stuff pillows, extra sails, flex seal (kinda kidding), or anything you can fit into the hull hole and then make a beeline for shore!
I hope to never regret it but I don't plan on installing a permanent bilge pump. Although I do keep the portable one readily available.

Amen!

Portable will do the job. Only difference is a few more seconds to set it up.

[OverEasy]

The calcs were a means to quantify how much time one may have to work with...and to get thinking on plan A--Plan B---Plan C---etc.
The round orifice aspect is something one can readily calculate as a reference.

The typical Mac 26 has a lot of hidden hull surface with our inner liners. From the limited boats I have seen damaged the penetrations tenet to be bow impacts and waterline side impacts (such as logs or large floating debris hit at speed. So getting to the actual damage site is a challenge all by itself.

Just an FYI..... In one of my former lives I used to get involved with rescue work and I found a several cars and trucks fully submerged in water with the head lights and windshield wipers still attempting to swish back and forth. So the take away is that the battery will generally NOT short out when there are good terminal connections.

For chuckles and Grins look on YouTube for boat ramp fails....(my own personal phobia when launching and retrieving).

As was pointed out the thing to do is to try and plug the hole and reduce the incoming water flow as best you can WHILE getting to someplace safe as best as you can. Buckets might work for a small leak but it will quickly get out of hand and personal capability filling and dumping overboard repeatedly. That and navigating the boat at the same time is beyond me.

Something I was able to se demonstrated by the Naval Reserve via an old WWI training film when I was a kid for a large hull breach was to take a sail and pass it under the hull as flat as possible to cover the breach. It worked wonders at closing down a hole that was several feet long and a lot wide. They also demonstrated using pegs, larger bungs, a wine/Champagne cork look piece, a mattress wedged in place and rammed in clothing. The intent was bigger than just plugging the hole, it was about having a plan and having multiple preplanned resources available on board.

Hope this never happens to anyone at anytime ever.

[NiceAft]

As I keep reading through this thread, I keep wondering if this product would work.



The problems I see with this are:
(A) how do you get it off once applied?
(B) is it safe jumping in the water in order to apply?
(C) how long does it maintain it adherence property? It could be a long while before it is needed.
(D). It comes in white, not blue

[Jimmyt]

The calcs were a means to quantify how much time one may have to work with...and to get thinking on plan A--Plan B---Plan C---etc.
The round orifice aspect is something one can readily calculate as a reference.

And did so very well.

[Russ]

(D). It comes in white, not blue

I recently read an article that explained that most bilge pumps are used for nuisance water. Which on a Mac usually means rainwater. Then the problem is where is the bilge? Many compartments will collect water. So in this case I think a portable pump, maybe even a manual pump (or sponge) makes more sense.

I don't worry about a hull breach. If I hit something big enough to put a big hole in her, I doubt any bilge pump is going to help me. And as mentioned, simply finding the "hole" to plug could be challenging also. If this happens, I probably hit something close to shore and can make a run for shore. Anything that can crack the hull is probably going to make a BIG breach. Looking at the numbers above, probably minutes before it's really bad. Then again, a small crack could be kept up with a bilge pump.

What worries me is a thru-hull failure. Roger has some flimsy thru-hulls without seacocks. A failure here is where I believe a bilge pump could save you. A decent bilge pump could keep up with a cracked hose or leaking clamp. BTW, this is also where we ought to be inspecting hoses/clamps often.

As I mentioned, when the skeg bolts on my Hunter pulled out, water was coming in slow enough for my bilge pump to keep up. THIS is where a pump is worth it.

Of course, it needs mentioning that an improperly installed pump could cause a flooding problem also if water backflows.

[Tomfoolery]

Of course, it needs mentioning that an improperly installed pump could cause a flooding problem also if water backflows.

This is, apparently, a touchy subject with some folks. My last boat was a Hunter 340, which has a small but very deep bilge where the keel bolts on. There's a long run from the bilge pump to the thru hull, which is pretty high up I might add, and when the pump shuts off, a lot of water backflows into the bilge, triggering the bilge pump to fire up again.

The PO had installed a check valve right after the pump, in the bilge, which worked very well. Until I heeled the boat enough for the bilge pump to lose its prime, at which point it would have a very hard time getting water to move with a big bubble of air against the check valve and the impeller not fully flooded because of it.

My solution was to drill a small hole in the discharge hose, right after the pump, so it could reestablish a prime whenever the water was deep enough, at which point it could push the air bubble through the check valve. Worked flawlessly. pi$$ a little water when the pump ran, but so what. If that tiny flow is a problem, use the next size larger pump.

But on some other sailing forum, a lot of folks posted things like "Never use a check valve on a bilge pump!" Without any actual justification, but some folks were quite adamant and vocal. I chalked it up to it being easier to recite absolutes than to reason through why it won't work, especially when it's working and had worked for years.

Diaphragm bilge pumps, by the way, have two check valves in them, like a reciprocating air compressor. Won't work without them. But that's a little different than a centrifugal bilge pump, like the little Rules and such.

[OverEasy]

Flex tape does not stick to slime....check
Flex tape does seem to work when wet...only on clean non slimy.... .(as in when used on my antiquated vinyl house gutters that need to be replaced but ‘we’ won’t talk about that as ‘we’ are working on boat projects to get on the water this spring....).

When Flex tape does gets stuck to a clean dry surface I still have yet to figure out how to get it unstuck without making a gawdawfulmessaboutit......

{Thought: Should Flex tape come in a Band-Aid color tone option......???}

Original MacGregor Though-Hull fittings:
In my meager experience of one 2001 Mac 26X the PVC pipe that forms the basis of the existing feed-through and fiberglassed to the hull appear to be intact except that over time early versions of PVC has an age embrittlement aspect. (Hence why the newer plumbing version is call CPVC as they changed the chemistry to make it more durable I was told.)

You all probably know this, but when I was considering the possibility of building a boat I thought it would be a good idea to talk with A USCG Representative about requirements and periodic progress inspection ideas ( I’d rather be told up front rather than after the fact that something wouldn’t be acceptable or recommended) and one thing he mentioned that, on current manufacture vessels, there is a requirement for an accessible operable positive shut-off valve (sea-cock) for any hull penetration within 6 inches above waterline and any below waterline.

So initially when we got to looking at our “new” Mac 26X I was a bit concerned .
With the current restrictions I have been reading up on fresh water lakes and marinas about dumping ‘any’ domestic waste water (I can see where the rules came from and figured we’d rather have a gray water tank anyway) we decided to cap the drain feed-through for the galley and the head sinks.

The aft motor well drain is in an awkward location and geometry though. It is also something that is functionally needed. Right now we are going left with the option of regularly monitoring its condition until I figure out how to get a valve incorporated.

The fwd anchor locker drain is where I just don’t know. I have no idea of the routing or condition or how to access the tubing or feed-through at this point in time. Any suggestions or advice would be very much appreciated.

[mac n cheese]

As Russ has already mentioned the water we generally see in our bilge is nuisance water usually topside rainwater leaks. Because of all the compartments and no true bilge a portable bilge pump or a good old sponge and bucket works well.

Following pic is my solution using battery alligator clips with the option of of AUTO mode should you need peace of mind if you leave your boat unattended. It's simple.

[Jimmyt]

Clever solution to the airlock issue, Tom!

The old ABYC H22 said it was OK to have a check valve to prevent pump cycling. Don't know what the new one says. I think the problem comes when you try to use a check valve to correct a poor discharge location (backwash). That's the trouble with codes and standards. If someone is going to do something stupid - either intentionally or through ignorance, writing it down in a massive standard/code that has to be purchased to view, is not likely to prevent it. Inevitably, many of the "rules" preclude elegant solutions to tangential issues.

I can recall reading a thread on another forum where some guy was getting backwash due to a poor pump discharge location and wanted to add a check valve to prevent the backwash rather than relocate the discharge. He was shutting the seacock to prevent backwash when heeling or sea state got hinky- leaving him without bilge pumps in difficult seas. The sea cocks were in a terrible location that took many minutes to access. One dude told him to put a check near the overboard discharge. Then, the fight broke out... You would have thought the guy told him to drown kittens in front of a kindergarten class.

Russ's point about the Mac not having a bilge is certainly an issue. When my pump comes on, I'll have 3-4" of water below the aft berth. It may actually be visible on the cabin floor by then.

Lots of good discussion in this thread, though. My opinion is, your boat, your rules. If you don't want a bilge pump, I'm fine with that.

[OverEasy]

On the air lock aspect and check valve systems......
A modern day current basement sump pump is a good case of reference.
Virtually all currently sold automatic basement sump pumps have the venting hole you described to get rid of the impeller air lock issue.
This includes systems with AND without a check valve at the pump.
So you have a great suggestion in adding it to a bilge pump system!

The current installation information put out by Rule and other bilge pump manufacturers seems to be to make a consistent uninterrupted rise from the bilge pump to the discharge through-hull port. This seems to be aimed at avoiding an inadvertent “double riser loop” which can result in the formation of an air lock between the rise sections.

If there is truly only ONE rise loop over the discharge just before the through-hull port there shouldn’t be a concern I would think .
But that can be a challenge to accomplish with the convoluted runs that are sometimes incurred with getting water from where IT wants to collect and where WE want to put it.....

We’re willing to acknowledge that there will never be a perfect solution to collected water inside a boat.
Our objective is to try and preemptively manage the normal conditions while providing some level of mitigation for the hopefully never incurred adverse conditions.

(We personally REALLY LIKE the positive flotation buoyancy build into our Mac 26X. In the worst case scenario it seems to be better to be awash but afloat rather than treading water by ourselves. To that end I credit MacGregor for doing a pretty good job of designing that in. )

[SlowSL]

Yesterday I climbed in there to check if the ice had all melted and see about getting it out. There was still some big chunks, and it will be above freezing as far as the forecast shows, so that will be my project in the next couple days is removing all of the water. I peeked around some of the access holes to take a look at the design a little more. It seems a short distance away from the sides of the top area of the ballast tank, there are longitudinal supports running fore/aft. Outside of those seem to be open all the way forward, at least the port side, I didn't crawl over to the starboard side. Where the floor is right where the companionway bottom is, looks like it goes up to the front of the boat, but steps up behind, where the ballast tank is raised. There seems to be very little space to get anything in there, I just felt around with my hand. The channel between the ballast tank & support seems to be elevated, starting just after the bottom of the companionway. The center of my boat is so full that water is all the way over the elevated area. The port/starboard sides are dry, thanks to the holes that the previous owner put in the bottom rear of the boat, however there is nowhere for the water in the center of the cabin to go, since it would have to go over the longitudinal supports. Looks like a shop vac can be snaked down there to get it out, so that's what I'll try.

[Tomfoolery]

Looks like a shop vac can be snaked down there to get it out, so that's what I'll try.

That’s what I use, mainly to get errant rain water or interior wash water out. I’ve got a baby wet/dry vac with maybe 1 gallon capacity, but it works well enough and stores in a forward compartment.

Looks just like this, but different colors.

Edit: Link worked on an ipad, but got bupkis on a windows machine, so here's another attempt.

https://www.homedepot.com/p/Stinger-2-5 ... /308699706

[Russ]

As Russ has already mentioned the water we generally see in our bilge is nuisance water usually topside rainwater leaks. Because of all the compartments and no true bilge a portable bilge pump or a good old sponge and bucket works well.

Following pic is my solution using battery alligator clips with the option of of AUTO mode should you need peace of mind if you leave your boat unattended. It's simple.

This seems like a good solution to me. Being portable, it can be moved from compartment to compartment.

How does the "auto" mode work?

The discharge line looks rather short, how do you route it overboard?

[Russ]

This is, apparently, a touchy subject with some folks. ....

But on some other sailing forum, a lot of folks posted things like "Never use a check valve on a bilge pump!" Without any actual justification, but some folks were quite adamant and vocal. I chalked it up to it being easier to recite absolutes than to reason through why it won't work, especially when it's working and had worked for years.

Very interesting topic regarding check valves. It seems they are often used, and I never gave it much thought. Then a quick google I found you are right, there is much discussion over check valves. Apparently, they can cause many problems, especially if they are used instead of a proper loop to prevent backwash.

I'm always amazed at Tom's engineering skills. Looks like the small hole is a great solution to preventing air lock.
I lifted this from another forum thread.


I hate check valves and here are four reasons why. The pump may have some air in it when it shuts off and the check valve closes. The pump can become air locked the next time you want it to run. "Air lock" means that there is air trapped in the pump below bilge water level keeping the impeller from getting traction on the water. Centrifugal pumps are not self priming, meaning they must have water at the impeller to start pumping. An air lock can last long enough to sink your boat (presumably any way), and it does not develop every time. One solution is to drill a small hole in the hose below the check valve. This will eliminate the airlock until the hole gets plugged up with lint. In the mean time, it will also squirt a thin stream of water across your bilge which can be unnerving the first time you see it. The new solid-state augmented float switches extend the pump run time after they actually trip off. This gets the pump trying to suck air at the end of it's cycle and increases the possibility of airlock with a check valve in the system.

The second problem with check valves is that you can trap so much water weight above the valve with a high head that the pump can't open the check valve from a standing start. Centrifugal pumps do not like to be stalled out. With the inevitable air cushion below the check valve, the pump sees a gradually increasing back pressure culminating in complete blockage, The check valve can stick shut a little too. The pump may not develop enough static pressure to open the check valve. The inertia of the water moving through the discharge pipe aids the pumping action, if you think about it. An operating pump is a dynamic system with water moving through it. If you stop the water from flowing, you have changed the system conditions enough that water may not always start flowing again. Bilge pumps are puny little things and do not always tolerate unusual conditions.

The third problem with check valves is they leak. The leakage increases as they age. This means that the check valve you installed to stop your little oscillating pump system now just oscillates with a longer period as the water drains back to the bilge at a slower rate. If the pump only runs every 15 minutes this may be tolerable.

The fourth problem with check valves is that they inhibit a good thing. All that water rushing back down the discharge pipe backflushes the debris screen(s) at the intake to the pump. Mostly these screens do not get clogged and this is why.