New Jib or Genoa?

[BlueSky Sailor]

Good morning from the frozen North.

About 17 degrees and would be better off with and ice boat than a sailboat but, it's never too early to get ready right?
Earlier on this forum I asked about going with jib or genoa and why. Got some interesting input on the matter.
My UV black Sunbrella is coming apart on my Genoa. I suspect this sail is original equipment and the boat is 2005. That said, the boat doesn't point well and my feeling is the sail is blown out.
From my flying background I look at the sail like a wing on end and the leading edge is too "cuffed". That certainly isn't an appropriate sailing term.
To me in my very limited experience tells me the shape of the sail is wrong and I'm wondering whether repairing the sail is a waste of money?
I contacted a sail maker and right off the get go, I had to tell you that he was kind enough to not throw dirt on my McGregor questions.
He said, "well they are what they are. If your not expecting a Ferrari, then you'll be fine". So true and I'm good with that analogy. I expressed to him that transportability and the ability to drag it from spot to spot in retirement, meant way more to me that outright performance.
He told me in his experience that the Mac has a tendency to be "over sailed". Meaning too much square footage. On a more tender boat it's easier to get yourself into trouble.
This man suggested a better made,(custom built) 135 sail with better draft to counter the sag in the forestay with the CDI furler. In addition he made mention that the hard luff used in the CDI further is a big mistake in terms of sail performance. Especially when its partially furled.
The sum of his argument adds up to the following. Smaller sail with "foam" luff, better sail shape, outperform regular genoa (150) with lighter weight material for the UV protection, 2 oz. vs. 4 oz. Sunbrella. Can't remember name of material. Just different.
Ah, the cost. $1,350. Now to decide. Worth it? Still not going to be a Ferrari when its done. My main focus is a fresh sail vs. repaired old sail and better pointing. Obviously, I can buy a replacement sail from numerous places for approx. $850-900 with UV protection. Nothing custom about it.
How many would consider this a worthwhile investment in their boat? I don't like to be cheap but I hate throwing away cash on something if it's really not going to substantially change the performance. And that, I most probably will never know unless I try it. Hate to be the canary in the coal mine so to speak.
I don't mind an opinion though.

Larry
Mac 26M 2005

[Starscream]

My opinion: Not worth it. Buy a good replacement sail from Blue Water Yachts and you'll be 99% as good as with a $1300 custom sail. Maybe better. They know how to make a MacGregor sail.

My advice: don't bother worrying about that last inch of sailing performance. That's not why any of us have a Mac.

Not expecting a Ferrari, eh? I'll tell that to the real sailors next time I blow through a race at 25mph on my way to the beach that is impossible for them to reach. Enjoy your racing. I'll enjoy the beach.

[dlandersson]

Ditto - these are not performance sailboats you want to squeeze every last .5 knot out of.

My opinion: Not worth it. Buy a good replacement sail from Blue Water Yachts and you'll be 99% as good as with a $1300 custom sail. Maybe better. They know how to make a MacGregor sail.

My advice: don't bother worrying about that last inch of sailing performance. That's not why any of us have a Mac.

Not expecting a Ferrari, eh? I'll tell that to the real sailors next time I blow through a race at 25mph on my way to the beach that is impossible for them to reach. Enjoy your racing. I'll enjoy the beach.

[Jimmyt]

Bluesky- Sail trim is pretty complex. Sounds like you are ahead of the game by knowing when the airfoil looks wrong. Just sounds like you need to figure out what to do to fix it.

A 150 Genoa is a handful if you are trying to point, so the suggestion to go to a smaller sail is good. In fact, the guy gave you a pretty fair assessment- minus the Ferrari remark.

Is your standing rigging tight? You should have a difficult time pinning the forestay if it's tight enough.

When you say "too much cuff" is that on the leading edge (luff) or top to bottom?

As Starscream notes, a good Bwyachts sail will be a dramatic improvement over an old blown out sail. But, learning how to trim properly may make further improvements. Lots of YouTube videos and other material online about sail trim that might be helpful.



Do you have any pics of the cuff?

Sorry about the weather. High of 72 today here. Supposed to get cold this weekend (our kind of cold, not yours). Going down to 33 for the lows. Days will still be around 50.

Hang in there.

[NiceAft]

I have a 2005 M. I am the original owner. I single sail most of the time. A 150 Genoa is not something to fear. From the very beginning I realized that a Mac is not a keel boat.

Mac’s don’t point well. Mac’s we’re not built for racing, rather for enjoyment in doing what other sailors only dream about.

Doin’t worry about not pointing into the wind as well as more expensive yachts. If you really need to get from point A to point B that quickly, lower the motor and start her up.

I have just replaced my 150 roller furler Genoa with a new one. I have a 150 because where I sail, often, the wind is light. I don’t care about pointing better, or better speed. Power boater’s are concerned about getting from A to B quickly. We’re sailors; it’s more off a Zen thing. The journey is what’s important.

If my roller furler genny is not as efficient as a 130, or a jib; I don’t care. If I need to get somewhere quickly, I start my Honda 50 HP four stroke.

Mac owners have a saying; we won’t win the race, but we will be first back to the bar.

I understand your concerns, we’ve all been there. Your good. Investigate BWY. They’re good people.

[Inquisitor]

I'd like to add my 2 cents worth and ask some questions. I have both the 150% Genoa on a CDI and 100% hank on jib. Jib has never been up. The convenience factor won me out instantly, so I am biased. The previous threads on this topic have always made sense why someone would pick one or the other... so, only you can decide what factors are important to you.

Pointing - I never had any complaints on the pointing of my Mac with the 150%. Maybe, I've tuned the shrouds pretty well... Maybe, I'm missing out and need to really try to do the Jib someday. I've seen others with the baggy luff. Wondering can you roll in enough... say 25% and clean up the airfoil shape you're looking for? Also as far as pointing is concerned, I doubt the furler plays much into that. What makes a jib point better is that its on the inside of the pulpit and sheeted to the interior tracks... it can be pulled in tighter than a Genoa. Me... I really enjoy that Genoa sheeted tight against the life-lines. It's a beautiful thing! I'm sure someone will say, I'd be faster loosening up, and even reefing, but fun begins at 45° heel.

Area 135% vs 150% - I'm no expert sailor, but I know the Mac can already bang well over hull speed (HS = 1.35 * sqrt(23.2) = 6.5 knots). It'll never plane sailing, so its in the steep part of the force vs speed curve. Even if a carbon fiber / Mylar sail gave you 50% more thrust, you might see a tenth of a knot on the high end. BUT what a 150% sail gives you is more thrust on the low end... In light winds a 150% might actually give you 2 or 3 knots over a 100% or even a 135% sail on some points of sail.

Hard vs Soft luff - I'd be really curious for some rational for a soft cylindrical shape over the hard plastic CDI blade. Better yet... real data would be convincing. As long as a hard one is pointed correctly, it will offer a very nice leading edge. This will be the natural tendency if the sail pulls it strait and the retraction line is not overly constrained causing a flat leading edge. I also see no true advantage in a partially furled sail. It still forms to the blade's shape. A cylindrical edge is certainly not the optimum shape of a leading edge. Abbott and Von Doenhoff would fail any student suggesting otherwise. Besides, I'm wondering just how well any foam will take to UV.

Sunbrella - I'm looking to sew my own UV shielding and contacted SailRight's sail expert. I specifically asked about lighter weight materials because the Sunbrella they have is 9 oz. He suggested UV Dacron at 5.5 oz, but only in white. But also "Top Notch 1S" at 7.5 oz and "Surlast" at 7 oz. So what is your guy suggesting that is only 2 oz or even the 4 oz is lighter than SailRight's recommendations?

Cost - IMO, with the above thoughts in mind, I would only consider something more expensive, if you could absolutely justify it lasting longer than the off-the-shelf sails. And considering he's suggesting a foam leading edge, I can't see how that's going to out-live the hard CDI blade.

[BlueSky Sailor]

All interesting points. Since this thing is completely just for fun and I use it approximately 6-8 times a season, the standard Genoa probably makes the most sense. My guess is just the fact of getting a new sail will improve most aspects?
With luck and retirement coming up end of this year, I'll be able to get out and do some sailboat camping in 2022. Covid seems to still have travel plans messed up this spring. Probably summer or later before some sense of normalcy takes hold.

[chipveres]

Following up on what Inquisitor said, I'm real skeptical of two ounce fabric as a sun protector. That seems like spinnaker material.

Chip V.
s/v Sand Dollar

[NiceAft]

BlueSky.

I have a cousin in Sand Point I have been trying to visit for the last two years. I am now hoping for 2022. If you are interested in meeting up with board members, I will try to fit you in. We will be driving from Rapid City, North Dakota to the west coast, down to Los Angeles, and then to Phoenix.

Wherever in the world we travel, we try to meet up with Mac people.

[BlueSky Sailor]

That would be nice to actually meet someone else interested in Mac's.
I live in Coeur d Alene and although both Lake Coeur d Alene and Lake Pendoreille are both great sailing lakes, I have my Mac on Bull Lake in Western Montana. That's where my lake lot is at.
Small lake and lots of turning as I've posted before. Easy to leave it moored at my dock and jump aboard on short notice.
After retirement I'll be able to justify taking it to another lake if I intend to stay 3-4 days in one spot. The set up time makes taking to a lake for a day a deal breaker for me at 64. Too sticking much work for set up, sail and put away in a day. I've done it and regretted it for several days after.
Give me a shout when your coming this way and we'll see if we can make something happen.

Larry

[NiceAft]

That would be nice to actually meet someone else interested in Mac's.
I live in Coeur d Alene and although both Lake Coeur d Alene and Lake Pendoreille are both great sailing lakes, I have my Mac on Bull Lake in Western Montana. That's where my lake lot is at.
Small lake and lots of turning as I've posted before. Easy to leave it moored at my dock and jump aboard on short notice.
After retirement I'll be able to justify taking it to another lake if I intend to stay 3-4 days in one spot. The set up time makes taking to a lake for a day a deal breaker for me at 64. Too sticking much work for set up, sail and put away in a day. I've done it and regretted it for several days after.
Give me a shout when your coming this way and we'll see if we can make something happen.

Larry

I's a plan.

Meeting for a cup of coffee works well.