Warning on Tie Down Disc Brakes

[Chip Hindes]

I have been recommending the Tie Down disc brake conversions since I bought them from Champion and completed the installation on all four wheels in the Fall of 03. No longer.

During Spring trailer maintenance last weekend I discovered one of the nuts holding the slider pins on the brake backing plates was gone. These come factory installed and this is a factory defect, not an installation problem. Both slider pins, the caliper bushings and pads were damaged. This failure occurred sometime last season. At that time the installation was under a year old. Though I did tow nearly 5,000 miles last summer, it was essentially one typical (i.e., abbreviated) Northeast sailing season of about seven months.

My original intention was to replace only the slider pins, bushings and pads. First, I learned nobody stocks repair parts. Tie Down does not deal directly with the public, but referred me first to Champion, then West Marine. Neither carries repair parts, only major assemblies.

Another call to Tiedown and they told me of yet another outfit who also apparently doesnt stock parts; though Tie Down assured me they would special order whatever I needed from the factory.

Tired of the runaround and simply wanting to get my trailer back on the road, I ordered the whole backing plate complete with installed slider pins, and new brake pads from Champion. The bushings I bought from an industrial supply house. Assuming the parts come in from Champion, my trailer should be on the road sometime this week.

Champion then referred me back to Tie Down concerning the fact I thought this should be a warranty situation. After three more phone calls and two detailed voice mail messages over two days, my calls were finally returned late the second day. Short story: the warranty was one year from purchase, it had expired and they would do nothing. They werent interested in the fact that there was less than one year of actual operation on the brakes at the time of the failure.

My total outlay for the parts and shipping will be less than $40, not a big deal in the overall scheme of things. However, it really burns me that they are going to hold to the letter of the warranty, nobody stocks repair parts so theres nearly a two week delay to get them, and it takes numerous phone calls to get anything out of them.

I wrote an email to the Vice President of Tie Down stating my case just as I have here. I was hoping that I could report that although I was sold a defective product, they made good on it. Its been a week and my email has not been acknowledged. They didnt and I cant.

So:

1) In view of both the defective product and the fact they insist on standing by the letter rather than the spirit of the warranty, I recommend you get your disc brakes elsewhere.
2) If you are already stuck with these, make sure you periodically check and retorque the slider pin nuts.
3) If you need repair parts, be prepared for a serious runaround and/or being forced to buy major assemblies.

I like to think my previous favorable recommendation generated several sales for them. I fervently hope this unfavorable recommendation loses them a whole bunch.

[kmclemore]

Thanks for the tip-off Chip. Sorry that the knowledge came at your expense, but good to know who the good guys and the bad guys are, at any rate.

I don't have a drawing of that brake setup, nor have I seen one, but here's some photos we can work with...







Now, it's hard to tell just exactly which nuts you're talking about that fell loose, but I am assuming it's the two grey nuts on the left side of that last photo, near the top of the bracket? If so, it would seem to be pretty easy to safety-wire those to prevent a future occurance.

What do you think, Chip, having seen the problem? Could those be drilled and wired?

[Harry van der Meer]

Chip thanks for the info provided.

I just finished installing the same brakes. I have not taken the trailer on the road yet.

My first impression was that (after applying the brakes several times manually) the wheels are somewhat hard to turn. I assume that once the pads settle, this will improve. Hopefully the brakes will not overheat.

Chip, exactly which nuts are you referring to?

[vatalon]

Chip,
If you purchased through West Marine, you might want to write a review to warn the rest of the boating community what to look out for. As you may have seen in my post, I'm thinking about converting to disk brakes and W/M looked like the easy but not necesarily cheapest way to go. It looks like Tiedown is the only brand they cary though. Looks like I'll have to do a little more research.

[Chip Hindes]

I found the brakes do tend to drag a little and run a little hot when new. After some miles they bed in and stay pretty cool.

Wow, Kevin, nasty picture.

I assume it's the one from the Tiedown website; from your description you've got the right nuts . Here's a better view in the assembly manual. Go to the last page. The nuts in question are items 1, the sliders 9, the backing plate 2a and the destroyed bushings 16.

I know you like safety wire. Probably they could be drilled for it, though making tiny holes through the corners of nuts is a job for an EDM which I don't have, and I'm not going to leave my trailer off the road for another week while I try to find one. These are monster 1/2" flange nuts; the business side of the flange is ramp serrated to make it kind of one way. My feeling is, if properly torqued they should gouge their way into the backing plates and there's no way they should come loose. I'll just torque the bejesus out of them.

Update. I finally got a response from the Tie Down VP today, exactly one week later. He apologized for the run around but actually half implied it was partially my fault for talking to Customer Service instead of Tech Support. He did offer a backing plate if I still needed it even though I had already told him I bought the whole assembly from Champion. I replied with a repeat of that info. No mention of the warranty question. I'll continue to update as I receive info.

All the parts arrived today.

[Frank C]

Robert chose a different brake manufacturer for several good reasons, but his posts & opinions have disappeared from Archives. See below to read the manufacturer's website and draw your own conclusions:

Review details on Kodiak's Vented Disc Brakes Page. Also see their Brake FAQ page. I liked the fact that they use vented rotors, and stainless rotors are one of the options. It is available from Overton's at $150, but that's w/ a galvanized coated rotor, not stainless. Kinda scary to imagine what the stainless rotors would sell for.

About Kodiak
Kodiak Trailer Components was established in December 1989, as a manufacturer of products for boat trailers. The product range has varied greatly during our evolution, but since 1994, Kodiak has been the leader in developing hydraulic disc brakes for the trailer industry.

Thanks Robert

[kmclemore]

Wow, Kevin, nasty picture.

Sorry, Chip.. don't know why it turned out that way - click on it and you'll see it's actually a small picture.. this forum for some reason expands it!

I know you like safety wire. Probably they could be drilled for it, though making tiny holes through the corners of nuts is a job for an EDM which I don't have, and I'm not going to leave my trailer off the road for another week while I try to find one.

Well, I like safety wire because it's pretty much foolproof, but you're right, sometimes it's a bear to install. As for drilling, I just usually use my drill press, though... seems to work OK.

However, there is another (easier) way to help stop those nuts from coming undone -- just fabricate a "lock-plate". Simply, it's a piece of mild sheet steel (stainless works OK too), cut in a strip, with holes for the bolts and an extended flange that gets folded up over the end of one (or two) of the flats once everything is tight. Use a chisel to get under the lip of the flange, then a small hammer to knock it tightly against the nut.

I "Googled" and found a pic of a lock-tab installation:

These are easy to make and work a treat - they are often used in engine assembly, though I don't use them in performance engines - as you say, I prefer wire!

Actually, thinkng about it, the manufacturer should install these as a matter-of-course... for the few pennies it would take to make them up in bulk they would save a ton of aggro.

[Chip Hindes]

Kevin:

Drilling a hole at 150 degrees to the surface of a 300SS nut on a drill press? Let's see, eight nuts, one hole each, I estimate 24-32 drill bits

Lock tabs won't work with the existing flange nuts; you'd have to replace them with conventional nuts and washers first.

As I said, these are monster nuts. The flanges stick out well past the points, never mind the flats. I'll see if I can get a decent picture so you can see the ramp serrations on the flanges. They really ought to work as designed.

Frank, I remember Robert's argument for Kodiak brakes versus Tie Down. As I remember it the primary reason had to do with the heat dissipation of vented versus non vented rotors. Second, I'm quite certain Robert was going to further sacrifice the advantage of stainless rotors in favor of the admittedly superior heat dissipation of cast iron.

I reasoned since the disc is inherently superior to drum for heat dissipation anyway, plus the fact that I was going to four disc brakes replacing two drums, I did not think the additional expense justified (x4 wheels don't forget). The Tie Down brakes were (and are still) under $100 per wheel.

Note that my complaint with Tie Down has nothing to do with the arguments Robert made.

I seem to remember the stainless option was either not available at all, or not available as a direct bolt on retrofit for the Mac axle; it may not be still.

FYI, Tie Down now makes vented rotor kits as well, with cast iron rotors. I note they have a two year warranty compared to the one year warranty of the non vented ones I got. Don't know how these compare to the Kodiaks. Too late for me, but perhaps not someone else.

[Tom Root]

Thanks for the report Chip!

As far drilling for Saftey wire, I never use a drill press, but I have ended up buying a 10 pack of cheap bits to do a job, and that works for me!

I just start 90 degrees from the surface, and once it bites in, slowly rotate it until I have the desired angle. I have had success doing it this way, and highly reccomend safety wiring the lug nuts on!!!
I

[Frank C]

===> Regarding scaled Photographs <===

Wow, Kevin, nasty picture.

Sorry, Chip.. don't know why it turned out that way - click on it and you'll see it's actually a small picture.. this forum for some reason expands it!

I recall that Heath made a forum software change. In order to prevent posters expanding the page width with oversized pix, Heath set the software to scale the pix within a standard 1024 pixel screen, probably to just 800 pixels width.

It seems that it also scales UP "some" smaller JPGs. Your first image was a gif, so that wasn't scaled. But not "all" smaller JPGs are scaled, as clearly evident in your "lock-tab" photo above??


(I notice that the lock-tab image includes "thumb" within the photo address .... that must indicate an image property that prevents scaling).

[Moe]

Heath set the maximum pixel width to 600.

--
Moe

[Chip Hindes]

My latest email to Tie Down was answered almost immediately. They "consider the matter closed" since they "tried to make it good" (their words). The way they tried to make it good was, a full week after my original complaint, offering me a backing plate. This is only one of the four components which was damaged, and I had told them in the original complaint I had already purchased the backing plate and all the other pieces I needed for the repair.

[DLT]

I had told them in the original complaint I had already purchased the backing plate and all the other pieces I needed for the repair

I'm really not trying to pi$$ you off. But, what did you expect them to do, other than offer to provide replacement parts?

Yeah, I know they only offered to replace one part. But, you already bought all the parts you needed... So, that's kind of a moot point, isn't it?

I guess, you might could have taken the 'replacement' parts back to the retailer. That is, if they have the Walmart returns mentality...

Most manufacturers simply won't reimburse your retail replacement costs... Rather, they only replace parts, at their costs. Most written warranties have rather explicit language to that effect...

I'm in somewhat the same 'boat' (pun intended) with my Mac Trailer. I somehow pulled the winch almost completely off. I guess the ramp was too steep. Anyway, I thought long and hard about trying to get a replacement winch from MacGregor, and I still might. But, since it will be the same weak framed winch, I paid for and installed a winch rated for 2k with a much thicker and better designed frame. (A word to the wise here, stay away from the cheap Harbor Freight winches. They may 'hold' 2k, but they certainly can't pull 2k, or 500 for that matter) Bottom line, I decided that it would be worth the $60 to never have to worry about it again...

[Chip Hindes]

I'm really not trying to pi$$ you off

Maybe not...

I don't give a flying fig what the written warranty says: this was a defective product, it failed way before it should have, and they should have replaced it or at least made a better offer to share in the expense. And it shouldn't have taken them a week to so so.

In the company I work for, I'm in engineering, I deal with these sorts of customer issues all the time, and me (and my company) don't hesitate to extend warranty coverage when there's any indication that a product has plainly failed before its time. In some cases we've expended many times the purchase price in order to make something right. It's sound business practice.

Hard to believe you're in effect, sneering at the WalMart return policy. WalMart knows it's good business or they wouldn't be doing it. Those companies competing against WalMart better not have your attitude or they will be out of business.

End of rant.

In fairness to Tie Down, see my other post, related subject.

[Greg]

Chip,

Sorry to hear about your brake problem but thanks for the heads up. I just installed the Tiedown SS disk setup and will be checking the pin nut torque and will probably double nut them if there are enough threads.

Greg