Proof that the M is faster than the X??

[Randy Smith]

Ditto what Chip says. Randy

[DLT]

Chip, chill... I'm not saying my boat is faster than yours. Actually, I bet you, on your boat, can out sail me, on mine, any day... That goes for just about any X sailor who actually knows how to sail...

Yes, there are a few who adamantly insist the M is faster. Some of those comment, of course, aren't worth the time it takes to read. There will always be peolpe to just buy into the hype... There will also be people who tormented over the new M v. old X decision, and now are trying to justify their decision, if only to themselves... But, for the most part its been a theoretical discussion peppered by MANY jokes... So, relax...



Moe, I had forgotten about the center of effort being raised... Good point! Ok, so we've got the COE being raised and the magnitude possibly being increased v. the COE potentially being moved more forward. Considering TomS's comment about the M being more touchy until about 10-15 degrees, and you're probably right about the greater tendancy to heel, at least until 10-15 degrees... After that, who knows...

Moving the COE forward could still counter both it being raised and the magnitude increase... It all depends on how much of a change we're talking about, since the heeling component of the force would fall off as a cosine function, which would be dependant upon a whole lot of variables, such as wind conditions and sail trim... For example, the COE's move forward would likely be much less significant when close hauled, where the function wouldn't be falling off very much, than when on a beam reach, where the function would be dropping drastically... My brain hurts thinking about it...

[Divecoz]

Why has MacGregor incurred the added expense of a rotating Mast (as have other's) if it has no positive effect on the sailing /handling . Too bad Roger himself wont post here why he did it . So why else would he have changed the mast? Going by the 1/8 hull thickness I believe Roger is frugal with a buck /material's . IMHO it must be one or more of the following. Saved him some money some how Actually is a positive sailing design. Was following the Car Manufactures and needed to face lift / model change . THE REASON for the mast change was important for some reason no doubt.

[RandyMoon]

Chill out Mackers and watch this http://www.negative-shock.net/index.php ... vid&id=267

[Chip Hindes]

Why has MacGregor incurred the added expense of a rotating Mast (as have other's) if it has no positive effect on the sailing /handling .

Indeed.

Why did he take 26S and improve it by replacing the centerboard with a 26D daggerboard?

Then why did he take the 26D and improve it by replacing it with the 26X with centerboard?

Then why did he take fine 26X centerboard and improve ity by replacing it with the 26M daggerboard?

In three or four years, you'll be wondering how the new 26Z has improved over the 26M daggerboard by replacing it with a centerboard.

Every single time he does this he touts it as an improvement. How can that be? Is the centerboard better or is the daggerboard better? The centerboard has a couple distinct advantages over the daggerboard, but you don't see any of them listed in the latest 26M marketing blurb, do you?

Why did he point out that carpet on the wall was a bad idea when he was marketing the X, but suddenly it's a great idea on the M?

Ditto the rotating mast. Oh, wait. This time he really means it.

Figured it out yet? Roger makes changes every three or four years, then writes marketing blurbs pointing out how they're all great improvements, completely ignoring the contradictions compared to the previous marketing blurb. These are not balanced presentations of pros and cons of a given new design. They're marketing blurbs, pure and simple. Stress the positive, completely ignore the negative.

Heck, if you believed all the marketing crap, you'd have to wonder whether Roger received a brain transplant in the last few years. If he didn't, how can he possibly explain why the X was such a terrible design?

[ALX357]

back on topic, rotating mast.... i used to have Hobie 16, rotating mast, always was grinding up its nylon washers and making a metal mess, but one thing, it did not have sail slugs, only the luff rope in the mast groove.
So i wonder if the aeronynamic advantage of the rotated mast is mainly realized with a sail directly connected without the slugs.... ??
Seems the presence of an air slot, between the slugged sail and mast, would disturb the smooth airflow more than the teardrop mast always facing forward. I can see the best situation would be the sail directly flown from a rotated mast, but the convenience of the slugs, or slides, is so valued, that most boat owners want that option installed.
Then, does the rotated mast still have such a pronounced effect with the slugs between ?

[Chip Hindes]

As for the terrible design of the X you are talking about? You own one, you tell me? I have nothing but respect for the design and model.

Exactly my point.

And yet if you believed all the bad mouthing of the X Roger does in the current M marketing blurb, you're almost forced to conclude the X must have been a truly terrible design.

[ALX357]

Isn't this really a question of whether a boX turtle or Map turtle is faster, and really just slugged out as a consolation run-off between the two last place finishers in a race they know they won't win. What's the point.

[baldbaby2000]

I don't think the rotating mast advantage is only theoretical. As I've said, I've sailed on a close reach with the mast rotated and with it not. It made about a 5% to 10% difference. Again having said that, the M mast is a wider stock than the X so for all I know, a non-rotated X mast is just as good. Next time out I'll do more tests.

I think the efficiency is translated more into forward movement than heel because the direction of the force vector formed by the pressure difference is pointed more forward.

I can see what Macgregor was attempting to do with the rotating mast and dagger board. They are both sound and proven concepts. There's a good book I've been reading by C.A. Marchaj called "Sailing Theory and Practice." He did a lot of wind tunnel and flow testing including models having rotating masts and various aspect ratio daggerboards. There's no question in my mind that the rotating mast helps. I do acknowlege disadvantages as pointed out by Moe but in my opinion they're probably worth it. With proper rig tension and lubricant my mast finally self-rotates pretty well. It was more expensive and more work but I did install a wind indicating display that works well. It's harder to say the same about the daggerboard because I have no way to compare daggerboard vs swing keel.

I'm not as interested in whether the M is faster than the X as I am into how to get it to sail better. I am somewhat disappointed in it's light air pointing ability. Maybe it's the boat, maybe it's the sails, or maybe it's me! Hopefully we can figure it out together.

[ALX357]

Then, does the rotated mast still have such a pronounced effect with the sail-slides between ?