New Owner/Member: Mac 26s...Baggy Sails!

[FlyboyTR]

Hello…!

First post, new member... and a fairly new sailor. After spending my entire life as a power boater (from large to small...) this sailing thing has been quite an adjustment; trying to teach an old dog new tricks! My wife, Kathy, and I have spent the past few months learning and playing on a Windrider 17 trimaran. An absolute blast and opened a whole new world to us; sailing! While we will continue to enjoy the thrills of the WR17, we also wanted to expand to something with a bit more comfort and overnight accommodations, etc. After a lengthy and painful research period we decided on a Mac 26 Classic/Swing Keel (26s). It sounded like the best of all worlds and allows us to easily trailer it or leave it tied to our dock.

I drove 2,100 miles round trip to purchase it and pulled it home. Everything is in fair shape, but it has the typical issues of terrible wiring and plumbing modifications/additions and mainly in need of a lot of TLC. All of which I can do.

The genoa is from a Mac 26M on a CDI roller furling and is only a few years old with minimal use; excellent condition. The mainsail appears to be the original sail. No tears, holes or patches…BUT…this thing is so baggy and stretched that I believe a new mainsail is in order.

It appears the bolt-rope has shrunk (based upon a lot of reading about that subject). I am considering cutting it loose from the bottom to see if it will help. I had also noted that the previous owner had raised the boom mount up the mast about 4 inches. But even now, I can’t get the sail all the way up (about 6” short). While sitting in the cockpit the end of the boom is at eye level and no amount of tightening is going to remove the bagginess of the sail. Again…new sail.

I would appreciate some recommendations on replacement sails. I have looked at BWY and Judy B’s…but with my limited knowledge…it is hard to make a decision.

I have enjoyed reading and researching this site for info. I am looking forward to learning and becoming an active member on this site. Thanks!

FYI...unrelated to a Macgregor...but this is a short video from our last ride on the Windrider. In it I am even talking about a larger sailboat. My YouTube channel is the same as my username here, FlyboyTR. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6AZO2wM_htc

[Jimmyt]

The 26s is a good looking boat. Speed won't match the windrider, but comfort may improve markedly. Welcome! Looking forward to some pics and videos of the project.

[FlyboyTR]

The 26s is a good looking boat. Speed won't match the windrider, but comfort may improve markedly. Welcome! Looking forward to some pics and videos of the project.

Jimmy,
Thanks for the welcome! I agree with your speed comment. However, If the 26s is ever sailing at 13.5+ MPH I will probably not want to be on board! As I move forward I will begin taking a few pictures. I wish I had taken some of the mainsail while I had it up. I am sure hoping for some guidance on that issue. Thanks again!

[FlyboyTR]

Jimmy,
I also just noticed that you are in Mobile. A few months back I saw a 26M at the Buccaneer Yacht Club (I was there with Marvin J.). Is that your boat? It's nice to know another Mac owner locally. I will look forward to meeting you.

[Jimmyt]

No, I trailer sail - usually launch at Pelican Reef on Fowl River. Have a few friends at BYC, but don't know the Mac owner. I've met Ed (signaleer), X out of Foley, but haven't seen others out on the bay. Look forward to seeing your S all ship-shape!

[Texlan]

Hi there, I picked up a '90 mac 26s about a year ago and can relate to the terrible wiring and plumbing... I stripped it all out and replaced everything, rebedded all deck hardware, and added a lot of 'creature comforts,' so the YL will actually spend some quality time with me..

Our mainsail sounds like it was in the same shape as yours. I made the call to remove the bolt rope threads tying it into the clew and the first (only) reef clew. After straightening the sail out and taking up all of the slack (took a bit of work) the bolt rope had moved up a good 18 inches...too high to sew it back into the clew. This means that eventually the sail fabric will stretch itself out without the bolt rope support, but I figure it's a good trade since I will want to get a new main eventually anyways, this at least lets us sail. The shape of the sail has been restored, the boom does not hang into the cockpit now and all is good. i'll note I also cut the bolt rope free in the foot of the sail, as it was also terribly bunched up and contributed to the baggyness.

We've had her out a several times and all is good. wind is usually lightish (5-10knts) here in Arizona when we have time to sail. Latest experiment has been flying the sail loose footed and things really went well with that. I didn't lock the clew to the boom this time, but rather anchored to an adjustable downhaul.. it allows me to raise the halyard to the top (or close) and then haul down to firmly set the sail's last couple inchees (I removed the almost-useless winches so this really helps with getting the main up.) That with the adjustable outhaul lead to the cockpit it really opened up the ability to shape the sail and make the most of the light airs.

Summary Opinion: cut the bolt rope(s) free so you can use it, but be aware that the sail will need to be replaced soon.

Sean

[Judy B]

Hi there, I picked up a '90 mac 26s about a year ago and can relate to the terrible wiring and plumbing... I stripped it all out and replaced everything, rebedded all deck hardware, and added a lot of 'creature comforts,' so the YL will actually spend some quality time with me..

Our mainsail sounds like it was in the same shape as yours. I made the call to remove the bolt rope threads tying it into the clew and the first (only) reef clew. After straightening the sail out and taking up all of the slack (took a bit of work) the bolt rope had moved up a good 18 inches...too high to sew it back into the clew. This means that eventually the sail fabric will stretch itself out without the bolt rope support, but I figure it's a good trade since I will want to get a new main eventually anyways, this at least lets us sail. The shape of the sail has been restored, the boom does not hang into the cockpit now and all is good. i'll note I also cut the bolt rope free in the foot of the sail, as it was also terribly bunched up and contributed to the baggyness.

We've had her out a several times and all is good. wind is usually lightish (5-10knts) here in Arizona when we have time to sail. Latest experiment has been flying the sail loose footed and things really went well with that. I didn't lock the clew to the boom this time, but rather anchored to an adjustable downhaul.. it allows me to raise the halyard to the top (or close) and then haul down to firmly set the sail's last couple inchees (I removed the almost-useless winches so this really helps with getting the main up.) That with the adjustable outhaul lead to the cockpit it really opened up the ability to shape the sail and make the most of the light airs.

Summary Opinion: cut the bolt rope(s) free so you can use it, but be aware that the sail will need to be replaced soon.

Sean

Hi All,

I wanted to drop in on this thread to add some professional perspective, but I'm not free to write much right now. So a quick comment will have to do for now.

+1 to Sean's post. I think Sean is right about the bolt rope in the mainsail. That mainsail is on its last legs. Easing the bolt rope with improve it a lot. But even if you easethe bolt rope, It's still waaaay past its "best used by" date.

As always, my advice is to buy the sail with the lowest stretch sailcloth that fits your budget. Better cloth holds its shape longer. Do you want the sail to perform like new for 20 days of sailing? or 40 days? 200 days of sailing? In the long run, better sailcloth means you replace your sails less frequently.

So my first question is: How many days a year do you sail and how many seasons worth of good performance do you want to buy?

The less the sailcloth stretches, the less your boat will heel, the higher it will point, the more wind it will handle comfortably, and the less often you'll need to reef. The sail will be more forgiving of steering and trimming errors. The boat will "sail better". Please not that I am NOT talking about how fast you can sail - I'm talking about how much control and comfort you have while you're sailing.

So to rephrase my first question: How many years of low heeling, good pointing, and gust control do you want to buy?

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Secondly, I would urge caution about using a genoa designed for one boat (Mac26M) and on a boat with a completely different rig and proportions (Mac26C) . If it doesn't have the clew in the right place compared to the location of teh genoa tracks, it will have too much or too little twist. The sheet will pull the leech too tight or loosely, and that will make a huge difference in how much power you get, how much it heels, and how high it might point.

The devils in the details, as they say. One important detail is that the luff on the 26M genoa is about 2' longer than the luff on the 26S & 26D genoa. That's going to make a difference. I really don't know, off the top of my head, how the design will match the hardware on the boat. The best way to figure it out is to take it out sailing and see how good you can get the shape to look on the boat.

A sail that was specifically designed to match the forestay and track position usually makes it much easier to get a "good shape" even if you're not an expert trimmer. It's more tolerant of "trimmer error" than a sail that doesn't quite fit right.

"good shape" means that for a certain wind and sea state, the draft is in the right depth and distance from the luff, the luff has the right curve to it, there's the correct amount of tension which give the right amount of twist, etc.

[FlyboyTR]

No, I trailer sail - usually launch at Pelican Reef on Fowl River. Have a few friends at BYC, but don't know the Mac owner. I've met Ed (signaleer), X out of Foley, but haven't seen others out on the bay. Look forward to seeing your S all ship-shape!

Jimmy,
Thanks. I have sent you a PM.

[FlyboyTR]

Thanks to Texan and Judy B for the detailed and informative input. I really appreciate all the details and explanations; for us non-sailors that really helps! I went ahead a cut the bolt rope. That made a huge difference. I shot some video to show the sail, before and after.
https://youtu.be/Xs7i5hzeq_s

Judy B, I will have to work the genoa out one step at a time. Since I'm a sailing noobie, it will have to be trial and error. I do know that the genoa is large. I may have to change to something different but I will deal with that in the future. I also need to learn what genoa tracks are! ...not a clue! Your comments about sailing closer to the wind and less heel with a proper and tight sail were well received....thanks!

I guess now I need to start searching materials/sails versus cost. Thanks again!

[FlyboyTR]

Texlan PM'ed me regarding not being able to access the video. I hope I have corrected the issue. Thanks!

https://youtu.be/Xs7i5hzeq_s

[Signaleer]

Jimmy,
I also just noticed that you are in Mobile. A few months back I saw a 26M at the Buccaneer Yacht Club (I was there with Marvin J.). Is that your boat? It's nice to know another Mac owner locally. I will look forward to meeting you.

So, that's it. WE have to plan a regatta.

Dog River, Homeport, Flora-bama, Pensacola and sail it back home!

....

And P.S. Sails need to be hard.... like... like... sailors.

[FlyboyTR]

Jimmy,
I also just noticed that you are in Mobile. A few months back I saw a 26M at the Buccaneer Yacht Club (I was there with Marvin J.). Is that your boat? It's nice to know another Mac owner locally. I will look forward to meeting you.

So, that's it. WE have to plan a regatta.

Dog River, Homeport, Flora-bama, Pensacola and sail it back home!

....

And P.S. Sails need to be hard.... like... like... sailors.

We are planning on sailing and overnighting either in Fowl River or at Dauphin Island over the Thanksgiving long weekend. Not sure yet on the departure day...but we're going to do something! It may be a Friday AM departure from The Steel Magnolia. Looks like east winds through the weekend. PM sent.

[Tomfoolery]

https://youtu.be/Xs7i5hzeq_s

Travis

I noticed at 1:24 that you have the tack fitting hooked to the reefing hook, which is pulling the foot of the sail forward. Notice that dog leg at the bolt rope at the bottom of the sail. There's a small hole through your boom (also visible at 1:24) which was added (and not OEM) to allow a long pin through the slot to engage the tack fitting, possibly using a twisted shackle.

I had the same problem, posted about it here, cut the bolt rope, then realized the tack fitting was being pulled forward because the rig was designed for a bolt rope sail. Adding slides moves the sail back, and the tack fitting has to be attached further back, too. You have plenty of room for the outhaul to compensate (2:42). Moving it back will help some more, as the foot is held too far forward relative to the rest of the sail.

That hook, by the way, is for reefing, not for the normal tack grommet. And even then, it will still be too far forward, as it too was set up for bolt rope rather than slugs.

Here's the thread, with pictures. http://www.macgregorsailors.com/forum/v ... =8&t=23552

[Judy B]

Thanks to Texan and Judy B for the detailed and informative input. I really appreciate all the details and explanations; for us non-sailors that really helps! I went ahead a cut the bolt rope. That made a huge difference. I shot some video to show the sail, before and after.
https://youtu.be/Xs7i5hzeq_s

Judy B, I will have to work the genoa out one step at a time. Since I'm a sailing noobie, it will have to be trial and error. I do know that the genoa is large. I may have to change to something different but I will deal with that in the future. I also need to learn what genoa tracks are! ...not a clue! Your comments about sailing closer to the wind and less heel with a proper and tight sail were well received....thanks!

I guess now I need to start searching materials/sails versus cost. Thanks again!

Hi Travis,

Excellent Video!!!!

Releasing the bolt rope made the luff of the sail look much better than before. After releasing the bolt rope from the luff, you can get the luff smooth, which you couldn't do before. All of the horizonal puckering caused by the shrunken bolt rope is gone.

Some of the vertical" wrinkles" in the sail that you see in your video are there due to the draft curve) built into the sail. When there's wind, those wrinkles will smooth out. The question about this old sail is this: How deep will the draft be when there's some wind ? If the sailcloth is too stretchy, the draft will be too deep, and move around alot in the wind. That would make the boat heel a lot, not point very high, be overpowered and be hard to steer.

If you can get some picture of the sail trimmed to the wind, I can eveluate the draft position and depth for you. You want to take a wide angle picture wide angle, shot from under the boom, looking up all the way to the top if possible, and showing both the luff (front edge) and leech (back edge) of the sail.

While the sail is definitely a better airfoil now than it was before, the polyester (dacron) sailcloth has aged in a way similar to the dacron boltrope. So it will, most likely, not hold its shape for very long. Assuming the shape in the draft is acceptable now that you've released the puckering in the luff, you can probably get a few more days, weeks or months of use before it stretches beyond further use. If you plan to use it for any length of time, you should stitch on some replacement bolt rope to bear the stress on the luff. The cloth isn't strong enought, even when new, to resist the tensile stress.

The sailcloth is a woven dacron polyester, which is a specific kind of "plastic polymer" You are, I'm sure, familiar with some plastics that get brittle or change shape as they age. An analogous process happens in the bolt rope, dacron sailcloth, and bolt rope. It's probably a bit brittle and has lost much of its capacity to "return" after being stretched. The stitching all over the sail is perhaps a bit brittle and weak as well? In any event, I would advise you to avoid spending any significant amount of money "reconditioning" or repairing a sail that's obviously long past its "best used by" date.

Judy B

[FlyboyTR]

Thanks to Texan and Judy B for the detailed and informative input. I really appreciate all the details and explanations; for us non-sailors that really helps! I went ahead a cut the bolt rope. That made a huge difference. I shot some video to show the sail, before and after.
https://youtu.be/Xs7i5hzeq_s

Judy B, I will have to work the genoa out one step at a time. Since I'm a sailing noobie, it will have to be trial and error. I do know that the genoa is large. I may have to change to something different but I will deal with that in the future. I also need to learn what genoa tracks are! ...not a clue! Your comments about sailing closer to the wind and less heel with a proper and tight sail were well received....thanks!

I guess now I need to start searching materials/sails versus cost. Thanks again!

Hi Travis,

Excellent Video!!!!

Releasing the bolt rope made the luff of the sail look much better than before. After releasing the bolt rope from the luff, you can get the luff smooth, which you couldn't do before. All of the horizonal puckering caused by the shrunken bolt rope is gone.

Some of the vertical" wrinkles" in the sail that you see in your video are there due to the draft curve) built into the sail. When there's wind, those wrinkles will smooth out. The question about this old sail is this: How deep will the draft be when there's some wind ? If the sailcloth is too stretchy, the draft will be too deep, and move around alot in the wind. That would make the boat heel a lot, not point very high, be overpowered and be hard to steer.

If you can get some picture of the sail trimmed to the wind, I can eveluate the draft position and depth for you. You want to take a wide angle picture wide angle, shot from under the boom, looking up all the way to the top if possible, and showing both the luff (front edge) and leech (back edge) of the sail.

While the sail is definitely a better airfoil now than it was before, the polyester (dacron) sailcloth has aged in a way similar to the dacron boltrope. So it will, most likely, not hold its shape for very long. Assuming the shape in the draft is acceptable now that you've released the puckering in the luff, you can probably get a few more days, weeks or months of use before it stretches beyond further use. If you plan to use it for any length of time, you should stitch on some replacement bolt rope to bear the stress on the luff. The cloth isn't strong enought, even when new, to resist the tensile stress.

The sailcloth is a woven dacron polyester, which is a specific kind of "plastic polymer" You are, I'm sure, familiar with some plastics that get brittle or change shape as they age. An analogous process happens in the bolt rope, dacron sailcloth, and bolt rope. It's probably a bit brittle and has lost much of its capacity to "return" after being stretched. The stitching all over the sail is perhaps a bit brittle and weak as well? In any event, I would advise you to avoid spending any significant amount of money "reconditioning" or repairing a sail that's obviously long past its "best used by" date.

Judy B

Judy B,
Over the weekend I took a few more pictures. Below is a link to my gallery. About 65-70 degrees was about as close as I could get to the wind. There was a lot of heeling for the little bit of wind that we had...also never broke 4 MPH. I would appreciate your experienced eye on these pictures. I have also noticed the sail feels a lot like a bed sheet; nothing crisp about it at all. Thanks!
http://postimg.org/gallery/15x5xpvao/

PS... this is a link to a video on my Facebook page. It is public so it should be visible. The video does show the shape of the sail in real time. https://www.facebook.com/travis.rayner. ... nref=story