Winterizing

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Wind Chime
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Re: Winterizing

Post by Wind Chime »

Spector wrote:I'm not sure I agree with the idea of pulling the starter cord occasionally thru the winter. Your piston rings are going to remove all the anti fog off the cylinder walls. Fog it and leave it alone till startup
Hey Spector,

Glad you brought this up :)
I mentioned that same thing to the mechanic who gave me the tip, and he said "leaving the piston in the same position the rings could score the cylinder walls", I asked him the same question about moving the pistons removing the oil and he said "it was a trade off, and depended how long in storage". We are in storage for about 5 months so neither answer was definitive. I thought about adding that info in my post but glad you bring it up as I would like to hear other opinions as well!

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Re: Winterizing

Post by Interim »

Thanks for the thoughts on fogging. That sounds like the way to go.

But I don't think leaving the cylinders in a fixed position will score them. Might leave some residue from the lubricant, but scoring requires friction, doesn't it?

Scoring, at least in the car world, comes from running a new cylinder/piston/rings at a fixed rpm so they stop at the same position repeatedly.

--john
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Wind Chime
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Re: Winterizing

Post by Wind Chime »

Interim wrote:Thanks for the thoughts on fogging. That sounds like the way to go.

But I don't think leaving the cylinders in a fixed position will score them. Might leave some residue from the lubricant, but scoring requires friction, doesn't it?

Scoring, at least in the car world, comes from running a new cylinder/piston/rings at a fixed rpm so they stop at the same position repeatedly.

--john
Ya, I've always been on the fence about this issue of whether to leave the engine as is, or keep everything moving a little when in storage. With our 2-stokes, too much moving is probably not good because with no fuel-oil introduced into the cylinders we could dry out and be metal on metal.

We are on the southern Wet Coast of Canada. Our sailing season is about 7 months (April to October-ish) so we are in storage for the other 5-6 months. I am just not comfortable leaving everything just sit for that period of time, add colder temps in December through February. I'd sooner pull the starting rope a few inches every now and again and watch the prop move. Maybe it just makes me feel better knowing that I am not watching it seize up over the winter :|
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seahouse
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Re: Winterizing

Post by seahouse »

It's fairly common for boat motors not to get properly (if at all) winterized for storage. I think it's the number one killer of boat motors. And I think it's more important that it gets done at all, rather than precisely the way it gets done. Over the years I have used different procedures for fogging and storing, partly depending on the motor layout. Always successful, never had an internal problem with a motor. (Now that I have an E-Tec, I give the command and the engine fogs itself to a far better level than anyone could reasonably achieve manually, then shuts itself down).

The startup procedure for a motor that's been sitting for a long time has to be different than normal, if damage risk is to be minimized. Even if the motor has been properly fogged, the oil (and fogging oil is thinner to start with) starts to run down and make a thinner and thinner film in time, meaning ever-diminishing corrosion protection and lubrication. At what point in time does that become critical? How would you know?

I have frequently heard of someone starting an engine that's been sitting (years I'm talking here) and then discovering that things are scored, abraded or worn, concluding that all that happened because the engine was sitting for too long. “Oh well, the motor was no good”.

The real story is that the engine was still perfectly good, until they failed to properly lubricate it before attempting to start it. The engine damage happened as a direct result of the engine running without lubrication, and not as a result of “sitting”. (Not to say some corrosion couldn't happen from just sitting over time as well, of course). I saw this on a TV show once- they started an antique motorcycle up that had been sitting in a barn for years – big foolish risk by some antiquers, made me grimace. It would have needed an engine rebuild long before otherwise would have been necessary.

BEFORE starting a motor from long storage for the first time the motor should be manually lubricated, fogged, oil sprayed in the plug hole(s), down the carb etc etc. I used to help a friend who would buy old boats from storage and renovate and sell them. For a V8 we made a shaft that would fit down in place of the distributor to turn the oil pump with a drill, spinning the oil pump and pumping the oil throughout the engine for a few minutes BEFORE attempting to turn over or start the motor. It avoided the risk of damage from start up.

In the case of modern well-designed bearings, once in operation there is no contact between the metal surfaces because a space is continually maintained (just like the boundary air layer in the case of a hard drive platter) by a hydrodynamic wedge of oil that prevents it. So wear is ZERO at this time. (There is a wives' tale that this is not so, in spite of the fact that it's easily demonstrated by the lack of electrical continuity between the two. Those particular wives do not make good engineers, lol). Wear does happen on startup though, before oil has had a chance to recirculate through the engine to the contact surfaces and form its wedge or barrier film.

I agree that there is NO risk of scoring the cylinder walls, or anything else, if you do not turn the motor over. To be sure, you might want to fog or oil again before doing that too many times.

If you aren't fogging with the engine running through the carbs, then with the plugs out, squirt oil at the TOP of the cylinder while you pull the cord (assuming horizontal piston travel). The oil will run down the perimeter of the rings to make a ring of oil that will be smeared over the swept area of the cylinder walls when you turn the motor over. You might also get sprayed by oil, so cover the plug hole(s) with a rag when you do this. That spray will also reach the top chamber of the cylinder as well. Put the plug(s) in and give a few more (hard) pulls.

I also close the choke (and throttle) valves (as mentioned) to impede the air/ moisture movement while in storage. (In fact some small two strokes recommend using the choke to shut the motor off every time). More effective than that (particularly with a single cylinder) is to give the cord a pull to the point that it gets hard to pull, then stop. That is the point of compression, when both intake and exhaust valves are closed (or ports covered) and therefor the cylinder is effectively sealed from the atmosphere, moisture and its corrosion. A good configuration to leave an engine in to maximize storage method effectiveness.

Note when the engine is fogged that all sealing points (valves, ports, rings) have extra oil on them, so the compression point will be much more pronounced than usual. And capillary action will maintain that film at these contact points (where you want it) for a longer time than if they were open.

-B. :wink:
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March
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Re: Winterizing

Post by March »

Question:
What happens if the small engine (say, 3-5 HP) is stored over winter in one's basement? I know that fogging it is preferable (not sure if there's any spray that does the fogging, once you remove the sparkplug), but if I don't and keep the engine in a vertical position for 6 months, how would that be different from not using the engine for 6 months in the summer? It's happened to me.
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Re: Winterizing

Post by seahouse »

I would think that the manufacturer of the engine would suggest fogging (or what we call winterizing here) the engine if it were going into disuse for 6 months or more no matter what time of the year it was. Unstabilized gas, especially if it had ethanol added, would be well beyond its best before date by then. Check the manual.

But to your question, March, it would depend on many things like the engine (oil /gas mixed, or not, 50:1, oil injected? etc) and the conditions (humidity, dehumidifier in use, range of temperature swings) in the basement assuming here we are strictly talking about mechanical engine internals, pistons, rings, cylinder walls, bearings, crankcase, valves, ports (and not things like fuel and stabilizer etc). Note that better quality 2 stroke oils (that get mixed with gas) already have fuel stabilizer in them.

And also on whether the engine happened to be in the compression stage of the cycle (sealing it tightly, as I mentioned above) when it was put away. If you wanted to be safe, spray oil in the spark plug hole, maybe a bit in the carb, turning it over a few times before you actually start it up for the first time after it's been sitting for a while.

I am not aware of any engine fogging spray that cannot be used into the spark plug hole (but that doesn't mean they don't exist). For years I just used a dedicated oil can full of 2 stroke oil that I used to fog engines with. It was the pump type that would forcefully eject the oil, like a squirt gun, so I could direct exactly where I wanted it to go. Just squirted a little into each carb while the fuel line was disconnected until it ran out of fuel. Then squirted more into the cylinders through the plug holes, but there was always enough oil in there anyway, so it was not really necessary. I had one particular 75 hp for 18 years, fogged every year with nothing but 2-stroke oil, stored under a tarp outside most of that time, never did anything to it other than routine maintenance, and it was still running like a top with full compression when I finally sold it.

If you doubt that 2-cycle oil gets made into a fog by the action of turning over the engine, spray some oil in the plug hole and turn the engine over with the starter with the plug out. From the compression you'll get a big burst of fog all over outside (as well as inside) if you don't cover the hole (rag) as I mentioned earlier.

Regular 4 stroke engine oil will also work, apparently, but I have always used 2-stroke oil (or foggging oil) because it is designed to burn clean in the combustion chamber more than 4 stroke oil is.

Of course, it's 4-strokes that should not be stored lying on their side inside, because the crankcase oil can slowly fill the cylinder (leaking past the rings over time) and hydro lock the engine on startup (risk of major damage).

How long ago did that happen, that the motor was stored that way, March, has the engine been running OK since, I would expect? I would think that the storage conditions were pretty ideal, and it only happened once. When I was a kid my Dad stored (fogged) outboards over winter on a wheeled cart in our basement over a few years... until the engines.... got too big!
:wink:
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March
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Re: Winterizing

Post by March »

Thanks, seahouse.

The manual doesn't say anything about winterizing, as far as I can remember (don't have the manual with me here, it's on the boat, LOL--I assume you're supposed to take it to the dealer, like I did three years back?)

The gas I use is always alcohol-free.

The engine is a Mercury 4 stroke. No mixed oil, but I guess I could find some 2 stroke oil around; I use it for my snow-thrower.

The manual says that you may store it on the side, as long as the handle is up (there is a little diagram in that respect,too) but I used to store it in a vertical position anyway.
Some people recommend using W-40, but I am kind of leery to spray it inside the carb and inside the cylinder.

Last time I stored it in a vertical position, it started just fine after 6 months (tested it early in the spring and got rid of the winter fogging, but then I didn't use it for the whole summer, until late fall)
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Re: Winterizing

Post by Wind Chime »

One of my best take away's from this discussion so far is the practice of re-fogging a little in the spring before start-up to ensure the cylinder walls are coated. None of our three manuals (Suzuki, Mercury, Evinrude) say anything about this, but it makes good sense to me.
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Re: Winterizing

Post by seahouse »

Yeah, if an owner's manual even mentions a winterizing procedure, they are not likely to suggest an alternate procedure to follow on subsequent start up if it isn't done.

I suggest a startup fogging, while maybe not necessary as part of the annual routine, would be valuable in several other real world situations. Such as when storage has been longer than a season; or when you have put the engine away in the fall without fogging it (or can't remember if you did, lol); or when you buy an engine used and aren't sure if it was done at all, or when it was last running.

WD-40 might be suitable for spraying the outside of an engine for storage, but I would NOT use it to fog the internals. It contains a light oil in a carrier solvent. Once the carrier solvent evaporates it leaves only a thin film behind that might be sufficient for the mechanism in a clock, but is not sufficient to protect an engine on startup and running. That film is much thinner than even fogging oil would leave, which might itself have had a carrier solvent, but its remaining base oil is of a higher viscosity, etc, needed to protect the engine from friction damage during startup and running.

Note here that thinning an oil with a solvent is not the same a changing its viscosity with additives, such as the viscosity index improvers found in (non-synthetic) engine oil, which is a more long-term, though not permanent in an crankcase, chemical change.

Advances in technology, such as high film strength lubricants, corrosion-resistant alloys, sealing due to high pressure fuel injection etc, probably make newer engines more tolerant of less than perfect storage conditions too.
:wink:
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Re: Winterizing

Post by dlandersson »

FYI, how to shrinkwrap a boat 8)

http://www.totalboatshow.com/wordpress/ ... kwrap-411/
Interim wrote:I know this topic comes up a lot, but in a search of the archive I couldn't find a basic list of steps.

I have a yamaha 9.9 four stroke. Are these the steps?
1) Run it out of fuel, and fog the carb as it uses the last bit of gas.
2) Fog the cylinders
3) Change the lowerunit oil

Am I missing anything?

--john
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Re: Winterizing

Post by Wind Chime »

seahouse wrote:
... More effective than that (particularly with a single cylinder) is to give the cord a pull to the point that it gets hard to pull, then stop. That is the point of compression, when both intake and exhaust valves are closed (or ports covered) and therefor the cylinder is effectively sealed from the atmosphere, moisture and its corrosion. A good configuration to leave an engine in to maximize storage method effectiveness.
-B. :wink:
So I've been thinking about seahouse's statement of leaving the engine while in storage in a position of; " the point of compression, when both intake and exhaust valves are closed (or ports covered) and therefor the cylinder is effectively sealed from the atmosphere, moisture and its corrosion."

QUESTION:
When cruising with our tender and small engine (1-cylinder, 2-stoke, 2.2hp, Mercury) after we use the tender and return to the dock or back to the MacGregor, should we always pull the cord a little to put the engine in this "point of compression" to protect the engine (cylinder) if accidentally "dunked"?

Darry
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Re: Winterizing

Post by seahouse »

Wind Chime wrote:
seahouse wrote:
... More effective than that (particularly with a single cylinder) is to give the cord a pull to the point that it gets hard to pull, then stop. That is the point of compression, when both intake and exhaust valves are closed (or ports covered) and therefor the cylinder is effectively sealed from the atmosphere, moisture and its corrosion. A good configuration to leave an engine in to maximize storage method effectiveness.
-B. :wink:
So I've been thinking about seahouse's statement of leaving the engine while in storage in a position of; " the point of compression, when both intake and exhaust valves are closed (or ports covered) and therefor the cylinder is effectively sealed from the atmosphere, moisture and its corrosion."

QUESTION:
When cruising with our tender and small engine (1-cylinder, 2-stoke, 2.2hp, Mercury) after we use the tender and return to the dock or back to the MacGregor, should we always pull the cord a little to put the engine in this "point of compression" to protect the engine (cylinder) if accidentally "dunked"?

Darry
Sounds like not a bad idea Darry. The amount of damage to the upper cylinder that happens to a dunked engine (when not running at the time) would depend on where it stopped in the combustion cycle when it was last shut down. If your recovery is fast enough.

Where in the cycle the crankshaft stops is not completely random (like, say, a roulette wheel would be) it is more likely to stop at or about this position, as opposed to other positions anyway, because of the “halting” effect of the higher compression.

You can often see this when you shut down because the sudden brake of compression (without the push of combustion because it has been shut down) will sometimes impart a torque to the motor, it will buck at the instant it stops the crankshaft.

I would suppose that the design of that specific engine (there are lots of different ways to do this, reed valves etc) would determine how well the crankcase side (the back side of the piston) of the motor would be protected at that stage of the cycle.

:wink:
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