Electric Propulsion for the Kera Jane....

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Sumner
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Re: Electric Propulsion for the Kera Jane....

Post by Sumner »

Seapup wrote:...My goal is more for convenience when putting around after work in the winter with little wind at sunset and charge back at the slip again vs distance cruising. I doubt I will use it during the summer. Anyhow, interested to see how it goes for others who are trying something similar!
Thanks for posting all that, good info :) .

I wonder if you put the same motor on an S/D vs. an X or M what if any difference there would be in speed at the same setting since 2 are displacement hulls and the other are planning hulls? We had a 5 HP Nissan on the S once and 4 1/2 to 5 kts was easy with 1/2 throttle or less. I figure if I have to run the 80# at more than 1/2 throttle to run 2 kt then this will be an expensive lesson :( .

The Kera Jane is heavy in the water loaded for a trip sitting a couple inches lower than when first bought but I think once you get her moving then there might not be a big difference in if she was lighter or not. I do know that we did enjoy her more in rough water going to weather. Wouldn't ride up and down on the waves so much. Of course in those conditions I for sure wouldn't be using the trolling motor.

I got the motor mount finished and the battery box is done. Working on the mounts for the solar array now and then later, maybe in Florida will do the wiring,

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Re: Electric Propulsion for the Kera Jane....

Post by 81venture »

I've been Following this post, but due to the high amount of math in the posts I haven't said much as it's mostly beyond me when it comes to even basic mathematics

however I will throw this experience from this summer in there....maybe it might help as instead of mathematics we simply put an electric motor on the back of a Cat 22 and this is what happened.....

friends motor was down in my shop for repairs, but we were taking his Cat22 and my VN23 out that day anyway. There was decent wind (very light though) and I figured I could just tow him out a bit with my motor and raise sails

then I remembered I had a 12V electric motor, pretty new, and 34lb thrust in my pile-o-stuff. No Idea where I even got it from actually, can't remember. He also had just bought a new deep cell battery. So we tossed it on the back of his boat.

At the lake there was NO REVERSE whatsoever even at full power.

FWD speed took a bit to get going, but once it did cruised at about 1-2 knots maybe...again this was full thrust. Wouldn't get long out of even a fresh battery...but it did the trick, got away from the dock and sailed all afternoon. There were 4 people and coolers etc on the Cat22.

Next day only 2 people on the Cat22, slightly higher winds....maybe a bit of current but it's Falls lake so it's that wind-ripple current, not like a river/canal current. The motor wouldn't budge the boat against a minmal 5-6 mph wind. At full power and all we were trying to do was manuever away from the dock maybe 30 ft and then raise sails....she wouldn't budge and we actually blew towards shore. Jason jumped in and swam us out :D

Anyway, I realize you are way smarter than me Sum, and your also using a bigger motor, AND you use math.

This is just what happened to us when we tried it.


Cheers Mate

Dave
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Re: Electric Propulsion for the Kera Jane....

Post by Catigale »

On the performance ..

Putting everything into watts makes the comparison between gas engine and electric easier

1 HP is 750 watts.

My loaded :macx: made 4 knots on a glassy smooth Buzzaeds Bay at full throttle with a Nissan 4HP.....that's 3000 watts.

To make 4 knots with electric, you will thus need 3000/24 volts = 125 amps from those batteries.

The canal is well sheltered of course, but I don't see a good cruising range here.
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Re: Electric Propulsion for the Kera Jane....

Post by Sumner »

Catigale wrote:On the performance ..

Putting everything into watts makes the comparison between gas engine and electric easier

1 HP is 750 watts.

My loaded :macx: made 4 knots on a glassy smooth Buzzaeds Bay at full throttle with a Nissan 4HP.....that's 3000 watts.

To make 4 knots with electric, you will thus need 3000/24 volts = 125 amps from those batteries.

The canal is well sheltered of course, but I don't see a good cruising range here.
Some good input.

With a Nissan 5 HP working at 1/2 throttle (probably the same torque/HP as the 4 and 6 HP at that throttle setting) we would see between 4-5 knots. 1/2 throttle doesn't necessarily mean 1/2 the HP as WOT so don't really know how much HP it took to run 4-5 knots.

I'm looking for 2-3 knots. The Minn Kota tech felt that 10 amps with the 24 volt higher 80# thrust motor might do that. I know that is only 240 watts but I still haven't found a good way to compare elect. to gas. Only time will have answers and that time won't come probably for at least 3 months when I'll be able to put the boat in the water after finishing the work on the Endeavour.

I've been working on this every day for over a month so I'm sure someone else won't put this effort into something that might not work but it is keeping me busy which is important right now. I have the battery box made but not stained and clear coated. The motor mount is done. I'm nearing the end on the Solar Panel mounts. They have taken a lot of time since I want multiple options on how they deploy. In the running mode four 60 watt panels are over my head where the bimini normally is and two 60 watt panels are out in a wing formation outside the sides of the boat.

All the panels can fold down so they hang vertically at the sides of the boat or the center ones can fold up under the outer ones or the outer ones can fold over the center ones. In some of those modes they don't see sun but I still have the other 200 watts of solar at the rear of the boat. I've been taking pictures and hope to have some of this up soon.

Remember that this is for use only when practical and not as a replacement for the sails or the 9.8 HP outboard. If the two batteries for the trolling motor are full from sitting on anchor and I'm depleting them and also running on the 360 watts of solar at the same time I might be able to get some distance in a day. I like to move and then sit on anchor a while so this might work to some extent.

I've always been very negative about using trolling motors for more than getting away from the dock and back to it so this is a big change of direction for me and maybe an expensive mistake but the build has been interesting and eventually there should be some answers :wink: ,

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Re: Electric Propulsion for the Kera Jane....

Post by Catigale »

That's the beauty of using power units, power is rate of work done or energy per unit time

240 watts is 1/3 HP. It doesn't matter if you are doing the work with burning fuel or electricity.
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Re: Electric Propulsion for the Kera Jane....

Post by Sumner »

Yep, realize that HP is the rate at which work is done but still believe that it is hard to compare an electric trolling motor to a gas motor just based on the watts deal. Not sure then how some of these guys that use 30-50# thrust trolling motors are even getting their boats to move. In the shop on some of my equipment that has elect. motors of about 1-2 HP not sure I would want to replace them with 1-2 HP gas engines.

Remember also that our hulls are different as evidenced maybe by your 4 HP needing WOT to go 4 knots and our 5 HP (basically same motor, different carb) doing that on 1/2 throttle.

A couple good reads where there isn't much consensus and that also bring up the problem of trying to compare thrust (ratings for electric trolling motors) and HP (for gas outboards) .....

http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/outboa ... 24964.html

http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/propul ... -6572.html

The trolling motor might possibly be more efficient at the speeds I'm interested in because it has a prop designed more for those speeds vs. say a 4-6 HP gas outboard and no I'm not saying that it is equal to a 4-6 HP gas outboard just that it might have a better designed prop for this particular situation of lower hull speeds so needs less HP to run in this speed range.

The only facts I know for sure will be what actually happens with the combination I'm trying and maybe it will be a complete failure, but then we will have to discuss what constitutes failure in this instance and I'll have a lot more solar for the house bank 8). Might even be able to sell electricity at different anchorages :wink: ,

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Re: Electric Propulsion for the Kera Jane....

Post by Sumner »

Catigale wrote:..My loaded :macx: made 4 knots on a glassy smooth Buzzaeds Bay at full throttle with a Nissan 4HP.....that's 3000 watts. To make 4 knots with electric, you will thus need 3000/24 volts = 125 amps from those batteries.....
I got to thinking :P , and in our landspeed racing I know it takes 8 times the HP to go twice as fast and according to this source...

http://www.offshore.com.ai/vince/perpet ... vs-hp.html

... that holds true for our boats running at less than hull speed.

If that is the case and it took you 4 HP to run 4 knots then you would need only 1/2 HP to run 2 knots (my goal) or 15.6 amps vs. 125 amps. Since the Macgregor S seems to use less HP to run the same hull speed as an X, let's say 3 HP, then for me to run 2 knots vs. 4 knots I'd need .375 HP or about 280 watts or about 11.71 amps at 24 volts.

I've got 360 watts (560 total with the house bank solar) which if everything was perfect (it won't be) would be 15 amps at 24 volts (trolling motor). So even if I only get 77% out of the solar I might be breaking about even. I am running an MPPT controller to try and maximize the solar output.

We can run numbers all day and come up with a lot of different conclusions but what does actually happen will be the facts and I'll report those regardless of the outcome :wink: ,

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Re: Electric Propulsion for the Kera Jane....

Post by sirlandsalot »

thread hijack warning.

i just stumbled across your sailing story from Kootenay lake. I enjoyed reading as we are moored straight east on the big lake from the west arm. We sailed into Nelson up the arm several times this summer. Already saving pennies for our slip next summer!

Cheers,

David
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Re: Electric Propulsion for the Kera Jane....

Post by walt »

I think I mentioned this earlier but Nelson Amen took some data with the same boat (26S) and it is here

http://forum.trailersailor.com/post.php ... t=trolling motor current

He had a 12 volt motor so the equivalent to what you are doing is speed setting 3 or 4 where the current is around 23.5 amps. His speed was 1.3 to 2 knots for 4, about 1.3 knots for 3 (around 19 amps @ 12 volts).

At those slow speeds, it is wetted surface that determines drag. Between a S and an X, the wetted surface will mostly be determined by total weight and you are possibly about the same as an X? Your "cruising" weight is likely a fair amount higher than Nelsons so I think you could expect maybe just a hair lower speeds than he saw.
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Re: Electric Propulsion for the Kera Jane....

Post by Sumner »

walt wrote:I think I mentioned this earlier but Nelson Amen took some data with the same boat (26S) and it is here

http://forum.trailersailor.com/post.php ... t=trolling motor current

He had a 12 volt motor so the equivalent to what you are doing is speed setting 3 or 4 where the current is around 23.5 amps. His speed was 1.3 to 2 knots for 4, about 1.3 knots for 3 (around 19 amps @ 12 volts).

At those slow speeds, it is wetted surface that determines drag. Between a S and an X, the wetted surface will mostly be determined by total weight and you are possibly about the same as an X? Your "cruising" weight is likely a fair amount higher than Nelsons so I think you could expect maybe just a hair lower speeds than he saw.
Thanks, I found that once but didn't bookmark it so lost it. It is very close to what I guessed at above...
then for me to run 2 knots vs. 4 knots I'd need .375 HP or about 280 watts or about 11.71 amps at 24 volts.
He had an average near the end of the #4 setting test of 23.3 amps for 2.2 to 2.3 mph ( 2 knots). That would be 23.3 amps X 12 volts = 279.6 watts and I guessed 280 watts.
Motor setting on "4": (amps / gps mph reading) 23.8/1.5; 23.4/2.0; 23.4/2.0; 23.3/2.2; 23.3/2.3
I think once you are moving the weight doesn't come into play as much but I do have more wetted surface so we will just have to see. The weight does come into play during the acceleration period. You need HP to get your car up to 60 mph but only about 10-20 HP to keep it there on a flat surface.

Also I moved up to a variable speed 24v motor vs. a 12 volt motor for a couple reasons, both of which should make for better efficiency...
Use Variable Speed Motors: Using a variable speed motor (vs. a fixed speed motor) generally results in significantly longer run times......

Buy a Larger Motor: Larger 24v and 36v multi-battery trolling motors are able to provide the same thrust as smaller motors with less amperage draw, which results in longer run times. If you need seriously long run time for your smaller boat, it may make sense to buy a 24v or 36v motor.
http://www.trollingmotors.net/trolling-motor-run-time

I liked the shunt he made. I bit the bullet the other day and spent $50 on another amp meter...

Image

... like what I use on the House Bank and will use it and a voltmeter like what I also use on the house bank to monitor what is going on with the trolling motor, 2 batteries and the solar array.

I'm glad this came up as with more thinking I actually feel better that this might work. Still if will be for some occasions and not all for sure. I've mentioned possibly doing the Erie and the Trent-Severn but in Florida moving on the ICW there are days with little or no wind (the wind might be in the right direction :) ) and you are motoring in a narrower channel where you can't sail anyway and even on the Gulf we had a day or two like that were it was flat water...

Image
http://purplesagetradingpost.com/sumner ... -11-6.html

... and I'd like to motor some like that back in the 10,000 island area...

Image
http://purplesagetradingpost.com/sumner ... 11-11.html

Also David glad you enjoyed the Kootenay Lake trip report. That was a great trip,

Sumner
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Re: Electric Propulsion for the Kera Jane....

Post by walt »

I think once you are moving the weight doesn't come into play as much but I do have more wetted surface so we will just have to see
I dont think so.. Weight does affects accelation... but steady state (constant speed) and at speeds much less than the "hull speed- which is about 6 knots - its wetted surface that determines drag. The more you displace, the more wetted surface - the more drag. But.. this also might just be on the order of a fraction of a knot (guess) as there is also a square law of velocity vs drag. This is also a guess on my part but the hull shape difference between an X and an S would come into play more as you get up to and exceed hull speed.
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Re: Electric Propulsion for the Kera Jane....

Post by mikelinmon »

I tried the Torquedo 1003 on my Venture 23. Iv'e been using the Honda 2 hp for years and get about 5 mph at full power, the Torqeedo gets same speed!
Your M or X will get 4.5 mph. The only problem is short run time at full power, only 20- 30 min. This with the supplied Lith battery. I tried this for possible use as alternative elec power for the M. OK for some folks and I now sell the Torq on some M's. But, seriously recommend the E-Tec 60. Cost of the pricey little 1003 watt motor with the needed options is over $2,000.
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Re: Electric Propulsion for the Kera Jane....

Post by Sumner »

walt wrote:
Sumner wrote: I think once you are moving the weight doesn't come into play as much but I do have more wetted surface so we will just have to see
I dont think so.. Weight does affects accelation... but steady state (constant speed) and at speeds much less than the "hull speed- which is about 6 knots - its wetted surface that determines drag. ..
I thought I was agreeing with that :) . Weight has a large effect on HP needed to accelerate an object to speed so I will be paying a penalty there while that is happening and agree that I have about a 6% larger wetted surface vs. what he probably had,

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Re: Electric Propulsion for the Kera Jane....

Post by walt »

I tried the Torquedo 1003 on my Venture 23. Iv'e been using the Honda 2 hp for years and get about 5 mph at full power, the Torqeedo gets same speed!
Your M or X will get 4.5 mph. The only problem is short run time at full power, only 20- 30 min. This with the supplied Lith battery. I tried this for possible use as alternative elec power for the M. OK for some folks and I now sell the Torq on some M's. But, seriously recommend the E-Tec 60. Cost of the pricey little 1003 watt motor with the needed options is over $2,000.
The original post regards adding a bunch of solar panels and two batteries to go about 2knots on solar only.. which is interesting but this would further degrade the sailing performance. Some wont care about that - but I would and unless the sceneraio in the movie "Water World" happens - then I will want this for sure :D .

However.. I cant help think about another reason for the electric motor. I have a 30 pound thrust electric trolling motor on my modified C15 sailboat and the main reason for this is that the trolling motor is only 13 pounds so is very light on the transom. I have the battery just under the mast and as low as possible where it acts as ballast.

The setup that is interesting would be to get hold of an old 26D that you didnt mind REALLY experimenting on. You (Mike I.) would know a lot better than I but I am of the impression that the D and S models also benifit from a light weight transom and overall light weight - assuming it is sailing performance.

http://www.torqeedo.com/us/electric-out ... dimensions

Torquedo makes a couple tiller outboards and the higher power one runs off 48 volts. What is interesting to me about this outboard is that it only weighs a little over 40 pounds - and is supposed to be about the same as an 8 hp gas outboard (which Ive heard is true even though its little hard to beleive). 40 pounds on the transom on a D model - good thing.

I would power this from 8 six volt golf cart batteries. This is where I would really start to cut up the D but I would cut up the water ballast area just under and slighty behind the mast. This might be 500 pounds of battery - but its also in a very good spot as ballast and these would work better than water. You would still want the remainder of the water ballast area to be useful as water ballast - but also maybe a way to pump out the water ballast and use just the 500 pound battery weight. For 12 volt typical accessories, just put in a 48 to 12 volt DC to DC converter. Since the goal here is a fast boat, you want to keep it light (ie, no fridge).

The complication comes in for charging the batteries. Solar.. OK for trickle charge (or 2 knots if you dont mind 240 watts of panel but the point of this boat is sailing peformance - dont want that panel area). The six volt batteres have a capacity of around 200 amp hours so you can charge them in bulk at 20%C which is 40 amps. So your maxiumum charging POWER would be 48V*40amps = 1920 watts. A 2000 watt genset like the Honda would be just about right for this.

But.. a 2000 watt genset is about 60 pounds and the most convenient place to put it is at the back of the boat - which kills the whole idea since you are now back to being heavier than say a 6 hp gas outboard..

Put that rotating carbon fiber mast on the D with the light transom.. might be interesting. Finding a good way to charge the batteries that preserves the light weight on the transom is what hurst the idea

(plus this would be very expensive.. you would spend way more on powering the boat than you spent on the boat itself).
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Re: Electric Propulsion for the Kera Jane....

Post by Sumner »

Been awhile since I've posted about this mod but I've been working on it almost every day along with completing some other mods like a dinghy motor mount on the side of the boat so that it is easier to get the motor on and off the dinghy by myself (finished) and adding a tiller pilot (finished) and putting in a MSD porta-pottie (almost done with that). Anyway back to the electric propulsion. I've added a web page on this....

http://1fatgmc.com/boat/mac-1/mac-outsi ... age-1.html

... and will do some cut and past from it to here but due to the picture limit here you really need to go there if you want to see more picture and info wise.

First for those that are racers and have no interest in cruising please bear in mind while looking at this, your goals with your boat and my goals with my boat are probably 180 degrees apart so with that in mind let's begin.....
Let me start by saying the following mod is maybe for no one else but something I wanted to experiment with and try out and there is no way that I could probably justify this to anyone maybe even myself.

Ruth and I had used the Mac for some long trips. Not necessarily long in distance but in time with the longest being almost 8 weeks and about 400 miles. I hope to maybe do even longer trips. The 180 watts of solar was 'about' adequte for the fridge a lot of computer time and a CPAP machine at night. Still had to run the 12 volt gen-set about 3-4 hours on that long trip. That was total run time so not bad. After the last trip I upped that to 200 watts but never got to use that. With the above in mind I wanted a little more solar if possible since if I'm out 2-4 months I'd like electricity just like you would like it if you were living at home.

Then I also got to thinking wouldn't it be nice to have electric propulsion at times. Maybe getting on and off anchor or to a dock or on that day there is no wind and the water is like glass, or motoring down the ICW or the Erie or Trent-Severn Canals (which I hope to possibly do). Well if I was going to take this step to electric propulsion I'd need even more solar or at least run the gen-set more and that was just going from one gas engine to another.

Before I forget I have no intention of not still using the 9.8 HP Tohatsu a good part of the time. This exercise is just for situations that allow it. I also realize that what you are going to see below will look like a lot of added weight but the 6 panels, frames, supports and such probably adds about 120 lbs. to the boat at the most. The 2 additional batteries does add their weight also. I'm strickly a cruiser so this doesn't bother me at all. I want the boat to be capable of self-contained long cruises, that is the only goal I have. In my case looks go out the window and don't concern me. Functionality is number 1 for me and chances are I'll be cruising alone or at the most with one other person on board so less weight there.
Image

Motor mount finished above.

Image

Battery box made but not finished as far as stain and a clear coat.

Image

Charge controller bought but I won't wire it in or the panels until I get down to Florida where it is warmer outside :)

continued on next post.....
Last edited by Sumner on Fri Dec 05, 2014 7:25 am, edited 1 time in total.
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