Cracks by the chain plates - yikes! Water egress.

[mtc]

I just noticed that my baby has a crack with the glass raised about 1/8" on the foreward edge of the port chainplate. The starboard side has a hairline crack with no lifting.

Please tell me you all have seen this and not that my boat's falling apart.

Also, there's water comming in under the pedistal. I think that's from the poor job running the cables into the boat by the rigger. That's just a seal job on the boot.

The 'dripping' rainwater egressing on port amidships (yes, i'm suspicious about the chain plate crack. . . ) is more of a concern because the only possibilities there are the port lights, the deck seal, or the jib track.

Help.

M

[Jeff S]

X or M?

[craiglaforce]

My X had a water leak at the Perko deck plug. It leaked down the port side about where you mention. I only found it by accident when I decided I truly despised that useless plug and replaced it with a different method.
THe Perko plug would get corroded and not make contact and require lots of fiddling to get it to work. I finally decided to just pull it, fill the hole and bring the wires out through some good old 5200. I just use wire nuts now. At least if they lose contact it is a 5 second job to fix them.

[norbert]

stop! mtc, don't try to repair this yourself! cracks at the chainplates and moving chainplates are a sign for a serious structural disease. i see in your profile that your boat is almost new. return it to the dealer and/or contact the factory. any attempt to repair it at your own will void your warranty!

[Bobby T.-26X #4767]

MTC:
you own an '05-M???
yes...return to dealer immediately!

[mtc]

Well, now that you guys have adequately completely freaked me out. I'll need prozac for my rapid onset depression!

I took another look at the cracks on the port - the place where the glass is raised about 1/16 ish - and it dosen't look like the plates are loose, nor that they moved. It appears that this crack was there before the plates were installed; how that happend, i'm not sure.

Completely agree that I should contact Jim Allread for some sort of followup. This will test the warranty response with the 'over 50hp engine' as i have the 60 Mercury. There's no way the engine had anything to do with this, but as Moe said earlier, it's Mac's call.

My request is for you guys to take a look at your '05 Ms and see if you have anything odd about the glassing around the plates on the deck. My hull # is 705, so who has 704 and 706?

I've sailed boats with aborations in the glass and I'm not worried about the structure, though I don't like having the plates hidden behind the carpet facia. Here I completly agree with why did they glue that stuff on there? theory.

One more request for the board - Anyone contacted the factory and can give me a name to simply ask this question about the cracks?

I've been out of town with a family medical emergency - almost lost my sister.

Makes you forget all about your pretty new boat; blue hull or not.

Michael

[Andy26M]

Michael -

I hope your sister is doing better! One nice thing about an all-fiberglas boat like the Mac: When "real life" drags us away, the boat will pretty much wait a good long time, and rarely holds a grudge Tho I have heard that those blue hulls can be a bit jealous compared to the more even-tempered white ones :p

I looked all around my chainplates the other day, this is a 2004 M that had a decent amount of usage and some high-wind days last year, and I have no cracks at all. There is some minor crazing in the gel coat right near the bolts, but nothing is raised above the surrounding surface.

- AndyS

[scott vos]

MTC
The "MAN" you want to talk to at the factory is Bill #2 in charge, under Roger. Their # is 1-949-642-6830 He takes all phone calls, if he's "on the other line", he returns call promptly. I've been to the factory 3 times with Bill helping me and have spoke with him on the phone 6-7 different times. My point is that Bill is very helpfull and goes out of his way to accomadate.
I checked around my chain plates (hull #776) nothing yet !

scott

[Tom Spohn]

I too had some minor crazing around the starboard chain plate. Dealer fixed it with some patch material--no problems at all.

Keep in mind that on the M the covers to the chain plate holes are welded to the chain plates. I think this was because almost all X boats leak in this area unless sealed with silicon. I wouldn't mess with trying to get them off. Boat is new--have a chat with your dealer.

[Richard O'Brien]

I don't know if this would help a moving chainplate, but for just a crack repair there is a product called "Creeping Crack Repair" item SB1001 listed in the Annapolis Performance Sailing Catalogue,http://www.apsltd.com/Tree/d30000/e29563.asp. I suppose it's a one part urethane. If anyone has ever used it can they drop a note? i might add that they're currently back-ordered, so it either represents high hopes for a new untried product, or a good market for an old one?

[flbum]

The glass around the chainplates on my 2005 26M looks fine to me. I glopped some Lifeseal around them due to reading about others who had leaking chainplates. I also put some sealant around all the windows which showed some drippage in several of them and appeared to have very conservative use of sealant.

I noticed that there are holes in the connection between the deck and the top of the daggerboard slot. It looks like a poor job of glassing that connection. I tried to seal those obvious holes with Lifeseal also. I might need a better repair for that problem if I continue to see leakage.

I have had (and might still have) substantial leakage. I had leakage evidenced on the carpeted wall of the head and the floor of the head. The boat is now parked in a designated space which has a slight bow high tilt. There was no more leakage in the head after moving the boat to the new parking attitude. The last leakage came from the pedestal hole in the aft berth. I believe that this leakage might be associated with the previous leakage running through the hull liner to the rear of the boat instead of into the head area. My engine cabling is run directly through the pedestal post and NOT into a deck mounted boot. I had as much as about a pint of water in a bucket which I put there after a heavy rain. Now that I tryed to seal that poor glassing job in the daggerboard slot, I'll see if I still have leakage after the recent substantial rain.

My point is that it seems to be hard to tell where the leakage is coming really coming from since the water doesn't seem to come out of the hull liner directly from the location of the deck leak.

My hull number is 478.

Hope this info helps.

Regards,
ROB

[flbum]

P.S. to my reply...

I've had good luck working with Bill at the factory since my dealer is no longer in business. If my dealer were still around I would have gone to them first. The dealers are supposed to provide the warranty support.

I vote along with the others that your problem sounds like it is important enough to go back to the dealer under warranty.

Regards,
ROB

[mtc]

You know, I gotta tell you - for a bunch of us who never met each other, we're incredibly helpful and interested. Do we love sailboats or not?

Thanks again for even reading, let alone responding to my angst. Ok, so as you recall from my OB selection obsession, things can and should be right. Compromise is something we've all demonstrated adequately just by having a little Mac. As for the quality, I see that we're all consistently very focused on it!

My sister is better and out of the hospital, though her diag is one of those, 'we can see the symptoms, but don't really know what caused them' so, I appreciate your thoughts.

As for the cracks; here's what I've found:

BOTH of the chain plates allow H2O ingress into the cabin (bastards) not Niagara, but sufficient to pool along the rails and collect in the bilge if not cleaned after every rain. Not to mention the boots over the OB controls which were installed into the SS pedistal (dealer cut hole) wasn't sealed either. . . another quart into the boat.

I looked up under the glass fascia over the chain plates and I strongly encourage other M parents to do same.

1. There were no washers mounted under the two 1/4-20 vertical bolts between the nut and the glass - c'mon Roger. . . .

2. There were no washers mounted under the three 5/16-18(?) screws which secure the plates to the hull, though adequate sealant. Oh, and whoever installed the screws took the time to ensure the slots in the heads were all positioned vertically so the three screws are in the same line. (. . . but, noooooo, sealant? We don need no sealant. . . .)

3. There was, however, 'enough' sealant to allow the installer to answer to the crew chief that sealant was used. Kinda like I put one quart of oil into your new corvette's 350 at the dealer and tell you, 'yes, I put oil in.'

4. There are 1/4" gaps between the chain plate and the deck (where the deck was routed to allow the plates to be installed) no sealant - air.

This assy is very easy to get access to, just lift the fascia enough to get under there with a good light.

I called Jim Allread with some hesitation, because I was not in the mood to be understanding and accepting of poor quality. In fact, given the work I'll have to do on a new boat, I thought of just telling him to get me another one. But, this is not catastrophic and I know that I can be sometimes a bit nit-picky and a freak. So, I let him explain.

He was interested and nice, as he's always been. He's responded immediately to every request I have made for replacement parts:
(the brown plastic seam sealer around the port lights; trailer swivel wheel; main halyard block).

Jim said that the 'new' chainplates were one piece and sealed 'much better' than the old ones. He was unhappy - though not surprised - that they were leaking, admitting that he's seen several before that did. When I asked why then, didn't he ensure MINE weren't leaking before taking my check (I left out the taking my check part to be nice) he said he should have. Duh.

We had a nice, casual conversation which ended in him telling me that I should just goop the plates up on the deck with 5200 and not go through the trouble of pulling them out and bedding them correctly because it's a lot of work. I reminded him that the correct way was to 'bed' them. He agreed and said that doing that WOULDN'T void the warranty at all.

I considered insisting (nicely) that I have this done under warranty and have someone do this for me. Then thought again that what if it's the same idiot that put them in the first place with insufficient goop? Or, his/her cousin? Sorry, cheap shot; forgive me.

So, I'll pull the plates out, re-bed them . . . no wait, bed them - they were never 'bedded' in the first place.

Oh, he suggested that the cracks in the gel were due to the gel being too thick on the deck. Possible, as there is no evidence of any structural problems under the deck by the bolts THAT DON'T HAVE WASHERS MOUNTED UNDER THEM!

Anyway. . . .

I strongly encourage all you M parents to take a close look at your plates for the washers and sealant. The leaking will wick under the carpet nap and you probably won't see the water until it collects. As for the washers, yes, that bothers me that these little details weren't added. Washer may be small, but they provide a very important function of distributing the load around the nut and provide substaitial support when used with glass.

Roger. . . quality will keep your product alive on the market. Quantity will not.

You guys. . . thanks again so much for caring about my sister and my brat boat. I'd like to know how your inspections go.

Michael

[baldbaby2000]

Micheal,
I and I'm sure others would appreciate any photos of the steps you're taking. I'll go look at mine today.

Dan

[mtc]

Very good/not-so-good news.

The good news is that it's done. I pulled the chain plates out, cleaned the holes (the not so good news) and repaired the small crack, installed 5200, washers, and new nylock nuts. Not as easy as other boats I've worked on due to the facia in the way, but all-in-all a ok job. Now the plates will be water-free, secure, and I know what's in there; that's a very critical coordinate on a boat, as we all know.

The not so good news is how/why the crack. . .

The chain plates should be parallel to the hull at the point of attachment because once the three screws are secured - they are by default parallel if I may be redundant. There needs to be three holes in the deck for each CP: two 1/4" and one long rectangluar for the CP to fit down into. If the holes are not parallel to the hull, then once the CP is secured, the deck holes will be out of alignment. That's what happend to this boat. Rather than drill the 1/4" holes AFTER then CP is snugged to the hull, the holes were drilled prior to and about 5 degrees (+/-) off hull line and the screws placed in and probably secured BEFORE the CP was snugged.

This did what you'd expect: The glass next to the forward screw had no where to go and cracked - very small crack, but in my OCD world, a crack nonetheless.

So, I called my dealer Jim Allred and recommended that he contact the factory and let them know that in addition to insufficant sealing, there's a drilling/jib problem. By the way, the rectangular hole for the CP was very crudely made by drilling a series of holes then rasping the opening. I'd of done a better job.

Very poor workmanship. I'd have the person who did this on an action plan for performance improvement.

Jim said the work I did would not void the warranty. In fact, he said he would reinburse me for the materials.

I'm considering compensation for my time. . . this is clearely a poor quality warranty issue and it took several hours up and down the ladder with my lovely bride and daughter helping me, a trip to WM, and a bath in 5200 no matter how careful you are. A good solvent to get that stuff off your hands is Go Be Gone. Very cool stuff that's fairly easy on the human.

I can't imagine the subsequent damage to my boat had I not done this work. If Roger were here. . .

Michael