Heeling a VN23

[81venture]

So the admiral and I went out Saturday to Falls Lake with the new mast. For those that know me you know I run two different rigs on my boat. for those that don't I have the original 26' mast for longer voyages, and for quick local lake trips I use a 22' mast i scored of an O'day (and it's gold colored, really sharp) that I can step singlehandely in 1 minute, and can also lower on the water singlehandledly to "Dip" under bridges. This lake only has bassboats etc on it. I am the only large sailboat. She is "Sloop-Rigged" with the lake setup.

So Saturday calls for 7-9mph winds, and a friend who knows how to sail well went on his Cat 22. Figured a good day to get some learning in with the new sails with him there alongside us. I found a beautiful colored Jib on one of the sailboats I flipped so I had my sewing lady cut it down to fit our new lake mast.

As I was raising the jib the winds picked up...as soon as the jib was up we started going pretty well with the admiral steering. Winds were not bad so I hoisted the mainsail. Just as I got back to the tiller a freak gust blew up and the boat heeled to port very far. I'm not good with numbers so I dont know how many degrees, but I'd say at LEAST halfway up the side...The dog went flying, the Admiral went flying, everything in the cabin. I didn't know what to do, tried steering one way or the other and somehow it suddenly flipped back upright. It all happened so fast, like the always say on those 911 shows. As the Admiral are checking our shorts and freaking out Boom, another gust, and this time she goes over further. All I can think about is Henry and the chiquita...I'm not worried about our lives...we could swim to shore, plenty of help all around, yes have PDF's..but I was more worried about losing the boat I've worked so hard on.

I yanked on the rudder and freaked out again, sorry I'm grown man enough at 42 to admit. Suddenly she rights back up. I think I steered into the wind or away from it. Again so fast I can't remember. I hand over the tiller to the panicked admiral, located the dog, ran up and dropped the mainsail quicker than sh*t

Now the wind is about maybe a full 9mph steady. We have the jib pulling us but she is flat and not hauling ass. I think we reached at least 15mp during the scare maybe more. It was like hitting the throttle on a ski boat.

Admiral looks at me and said "This is NOT jimmy buffet style fun sailing"

So cruising with just the jib, probably looking like an idiot, but don't care...finally feel safe. Remember, I came out in LIGHT winds to do some learning.

Friend finally pulls up, tell me how awesome it was, said he saw the bottom of the boat, and said I thought you couldn't sail. After explaining my need for new swim trunks at this point I got my first quick lesson. "Dump the bucket" he said, in other words you release the boom and it swings out dumps all the force.

Ahh, learned how to "spill the wind" today

So we hoist up our SMALLER mainsail as the winds are not as strong now but we still don't feel ready for the bigger mainsail as it was still pretty windy...practiced sailing up and down, a few smaller gusts but with smaller mainsail to practice, the admiral holding the "dump the bucket" line saying "Dump it? Now? I'm going to dump it!! Now? you sure?" we did quite well. We learned to control the "bucket" and we actually started clipping along with only small amount of heeling. Faster than we ever sailed before and although still nervous as the wind picked up more we enjoyed it.

So I wondered a couple things now that I am safe on land.

1. At what rate of heel do you really start to worry?
2. What rate of heel is good? I guess that's depending on your style of sailing...the go fast people heel more. I am a slow cruiser and I am not too keen on everything fling a-kilter including the admiral just to "go faster"

Also I have been reading on another forum about "keel lock"...I see a plug in the cabin, but I have never popped it off to see what is inside...We lower the keel, but I have never locked it (I wouldn't at Falls, varying depths and stumps).

Has anyone ever "heeled over all the way? I have read Henry's story, but in his case she went to the bottom. I thought they were supposed to right themselves? I'm going to read up a bunch on this today

Anyway cheers mates

hella story eh? there is also a part II if your interested...rest of our day we had no more sailing issues, but later that afternoon my bud snapped both spreaders and tweeked the mast good

Dave

[Tomfoolery]

Friend finally pulls up, tell me how awesome it was, said he saw the bottom of the boat, and said I thought you couldn't sail.

That's like the standard gag in comedy movies where the hapless chap skis on one snow ski, or rides the mountain bike down a cliff (or whatever) all the while completely out of control and the crowd thinks he's an ace.

1. At what rate of heel do you really start to worry?
2. What rate of heel is good? I guess that's depending on your style of sailing...the go fast people heel more. I am a slow cruiser and I am not too keen on everything fling a-kilter including the admiral just to "go faster"

1. I start to worry when water is coming over the rail into the cockpit. Worry more at about 110 degrees. The boat is stable to at least 90 degrees, at which point everyone is in the water anyway.

2. Despite the feeling of flying, heeling to extreme angles is NOT the fastest way to sail. The boat will sail faster at much shallower heel angle, though I don't know the particulars for the VN23. Hull shape is poor, with lots of hull in the water, and the boards are exerting much of their force vertically whereas they're there to keep the boat from side slipping and to steer (horizontal force). Similarly, the sails will be exerting forward thrust (lift) far out beyond the drag of the hull and boards, which tries to turn the boat into the wind, and with the less effective rudder and keel, it all start coming apart as the boat points itself into the wind (called 'rounding up'). Feels fast, and is definitely exiting, but not the fastest way to sail by any stretch.

With the wind off the beam, the further the boat is heeled the less sail is exposed to the wind (like holding your hand out the car window at speed - horizontal = little drag, progressively more vertical = progressively more drag), so there will be an angle where the wind force (being reduced as the boat heels further) balances the restoring moment of the hull shape and center of mass being off center of the center of pressure (which is increasing as the boat heels further - the natural tendency of the boat to stand back up), and it won't go any further aside from some momentum carrying it beyond a bit for a brief period. But if you get hit hard and don't do anything, it certainly can toss everyone, and even put the mast in the water in extreme cases (call a knock-down), though it should stand itself back up if it hasn't gone too far.

When you get hit by a gust, let off the main sheet, as you learned, but you can also steer into the wind, as that makes the sail 'look' smaller, to the point where it's luffing, or just flapping in the extreme. In fact, a 'fisherman's reef' (as I know it) is just steering so close to the wind that some of the sail loses effectiveness starting at the mast, so less sail is doing anything, and the boat stands taller. Sort of like driving a car on two wheels - some careful steering will keep it there.

Steering away from the wind will make it worse. If it's gusty, someone should be on that sheet anyway, and the admiral is a good one for that, or for steering, as it'll make her feel more in control (because she IS more in control). Once you get used to it, it wont' be scary, and you won't be heeling further than you want to. If it's really gusty, don't cleat the main sheet - just hold it, and work it to keep the heel angle where you want it, and to maintain sail shape. With good rigging, you can steer with one hand, and work the main sheet with the other, and have a grand time in brisk conditions.

I don't know what the mainsheet rigging looks like on that boat, but if they're the inexpensive little blocks with plain bearings (no rollers or balls), it will help greatly to replace them with good quality (not super expensive; just good) ball bearing blocks. That will make the mainsheet much easier to adjust while sailing with some good load on the system. And wear sailing gloves - letting the sheet slide through bare hands with a lot of force on it is something you won't forget (think smoke coming off her palms, again like a cheesy comedy movie, only in real life, rope burns aren't funny at all).

[mastreb]

The trick to sailing in gusts on small boats such as ours is to uncleat the mainsheet and sail with it in hand--One hand on the tiller/wheel, one hand holding the mainsheet.

You'll feel every gust and the motion of the air "in your bones", and you'll be using your own arm strength to keep the wind on the main at the best possible tension to the wind. You can literally feel the optimal mainsail angle to the wind, AND you can keep the heel angle of the boat precisely where you want simply by easing and hauling on the mainsheet in real time.

Best of all, if you ever lose your sh*t and drop the mainsheet, the boom swings out and the boat rights, which is exactly what you probably want.

Matt

[BOAT]

I remember back in the 70's it seemed to me that NO ONE used a Genoa on their small sailboats (Boats between 19 and 26 feet). I remember looking out at all the other boats in the ocean and we could spot the boat with a Genoa a mile away because they were so rare. Then in the 80's that became the "thing" - "gotta have a Genoa!"

Most boats will always sail better on a working jib in most applications (thus the term: "working" jib). The Genoa became so popular in the 80's and 90's that today every boat just has to have one or somehow you are missing something. Nothing could be further from the truth.

I would estimate that 'boat' has about 10% of his Genoa reefed about 20% of the time we are in the ocean. I do very rarely mess with the main sheet although that is also a great way to adjust for heel angle. Instead I tend to reef in the Genoa an tiny increments until the gusts can no longer push the boat past my desired heel angle.

I always get good speed out of 'boat' and we have some pretty good gusty winds over here in the Pacific (especially this time of year) but I must admit they may not be as dramatic as the winds that might occur on a lake. I'm not really sure because I have only sailed on about a dozen lakes and spent most of my time on the ocean.

Anyway, my point is that if your flying a Genoa you already are asking for a lot of air pressure on the boat - a Genoa is good for hauling heavy loads or going faster in light winds but in heavy wind it can make the boat lean sooner and then cause drag. If you reef in the genoa a little so that there is a balance between picking up more wind but not causing drag you will go faster and lean over less.

That's what works well on 'boat'.

The worst wind I have been in so far in 'boat' was about 35 to 40MPH winds and for that I used no head-sail at all and she seemed to sail "okay" as long as I did not try to point too high. I still have not had the chance to have a lot of sailing with 'boat' under a reefed main because I have not run into any winds that strong yet since I got boat. That is something I still need a little more testing on.
(Or perhaps I should try sailing a reefed main when the wind is 35 MPH? What is the threshold for that guys? Anyone know?)

[81venture]

The trick to sailing in gusts on small boats such as ours is to uncleat the mainsheet and sail with it in hand--One hand on the tiller/wheel, one hand holding the mainsheet.

You'll feel every gust and the motion of the air "in your bones", and you'll be using your own arm strength to keep the wind on the main at the best possible tension to the wind. You can literally feel the optimal mainsail angle to the wind, AND you can keep the heel angle of the boat precisely where you want simply by easing and hauling on the mainsheet in real time.

Best of all, if you ever lose your sh*t and drop the mainsheet, the boom swings out and the boat rights, which is exactly what you probably want.

Matt

Hence My friend stated "dump the bucket"

I did this later on...what freaked us out was it was light winds and we just hoisted it all up...actually waiting for him to come round up to us. I knew it would be windier that day than ever before at this rinky dink lake....but was unprepared for what happened...it taught me, once again as I am a powerboater for years, that anything can happen...

I have been on that POS lake for years and never saw that happen...

Again what makes it so funny was this was "training day" in moderate wind

Later on we were doing well, if it heeled more than we liked I dumped it, but we learned to get comfortable with some heeling...when it happens suddenly is what freaked us...We both thought the boat was going over and done for

Later on alex and I will take it out in heavy (ish) winds like that and I will learn with him...

It was fun..

We didn't "lose our sh*t" but it was close...we both checked our drawers twice...the dog is still sketched out though

good times!

cheers

[mastreb]

The 2nd trick to winds is what BOAT is alluding too--if you're routinely have to spill a lot of air with the mainsheet already in your hands, reef the headsail until you don't, then sail in that position.

When the headsail is down to a patch, reef the mainsail and let some headsail out for balance.

If you're still being blown over at that point, it's time to call it a day, drop sail, and motor in.

[BOAT]

I always shorten the jib if it's longer than a working jib first because as a teenager I spent 80% of my sailing time racing in regattas in my dad's sailboat club.

If he caught me dropping the mainsheet so that the boom swung enough to backwind the genoa I got yelled at and in big trouble because letting out the main sail like that is like closing the back door on all the wind traveling through the genoa. You will indeed put the boat back up to degree-zero but it also puts the brakes on your forward speed almost as bad as a hove-to.

After getting yelled at a few times it sort of got ingrained in me to hold firm on that mainsheet and feather out the headsail - if the headsail was luffing and I was still tipping over I would let the headsail fly - if that righted the boat then I would reef the headsail 10% before pulling it back in - the whole process is very fast and only takes seconds if you are fast to grab the furler and pull in a little before hauling the jib back in. If your in a race this keeps you from slowing down as much as you would letting out the mainsheet. If you watch the race boats it's really common for them to drag their headsail right down so it's touching the water! This happens because they are SO reluctant to let the main fly before the jib. They will luff those big genoas right down into the water first!

Most people don't like using the headsail to right the ship because it means you must run to the low end of the boat to grab the jib sheet. The natuaral tendency is to try to stay up on the high side of the boat to provide counter ballast but in a race someone has to go run downhill to get that jib sheet because the skipper is NOT going to let out the main!!! Most skippers like to send the lightest person, (who is usually the youngest), over to the low side of the boat to grab the jib sheet, thus, as a teenager I got lot's of practice. After a while I even learned to drag my leg in the water on the wet side of the boat by riding the gunwale like a horse as I released the jib, righted the boat, hauled in the furler, and winched the jib back in. I got good at it after a while. That was the way they taught me to do it because in a race you NEVER backwind your headsail.

For all us regular folks just out pleasure boating I think Matt has the best idea to just let out the main. For me old habits die hard.

Keep your mainsail tight - if a sail must luff it should be the headsail - they are meant to fly like a kite, the mainsail is not a kite - it's more of a wing and it needs constant even pressure accross it's entire surface. The headsail, not so much. You can play with that one.

[Steve K]

Boat,

Your comment about having to go to the low side to adjust the working sheet makes me think of (particularly when single handing) cross sheeting the head sail. I've thought of this before, but never set up any hardware for it, but it seems like cross sheeting would be really handy when alone on the boat in a blow.

Your thoughts on on this

Best Breezes,
Steve K.

[seahouse]

Hey Boat –

Adding to your preference favouring the mainsail is the fact that the performance of the mainsail is impeded by the presence of the jib or genoa -it performs better on its own. It's the genoa that benefits from the two working in concert, so if you had to dump one or the other, while still maintaining maximum performance, like in a race, it would be the genoa.

-Brian.

[mastreb]

Feathering the jib is better for maximum performance, but I actually find that particularly on the M, keeping the boat on a constant 20 degree heel dramatically improves performance, by about 1 knot overall compared to letting the boat roll. It's important enough that I do preferentially feather the main because it's so much faster to respond to changes in heel.

Just my experience with it, but I'm also constantly working the genny so I'd have to think about what I do more.

Matt

[seahouse]

Well truth be told Matt, that's how I do it too. Mainsheet uncleated and held in hand; other hand on the wheel; feet braced against the low seat. That's the most fun too, and how smaller boats are sailed, at least at the start.

Boat, you can probably tell when the sail is about to be backwinded without actually getting any crease, sailing on the sweet spot without crossing over it. That can sometimes be tough (for me) in some of the wind conditions we get here. I'd like to go sailing with you sometime.
-B.

[BOAT]

The idea is to trim the boat so that there is no need to do anything to maintain a heel angle between 10 and 20 degrees.

I cut the jib 10% or even less, then wait. If the boat tips over again I cut the jib again, another 10%. I do this until the boat stops tipping over.

Once everything balanced you don't even need to hold the wheel. The racers don't put a lot of action on the wheel either - every time you move that rudder your dragging the boat down slower as much as if you just put a whisker pole 3 feet into the water.

Try it some time: Take your boat hook or whisker pole and extend it so you can dip one end of the pole down into the water about three feet. The drag created on that little 3/4 inch pole is so strong I bet you can't hold it without two hands if your over 5 knots. Now imagine rudders turning to that they are presenting over three inches of their surface to the water - that's what a quarter turn correction on the wheel does to a rudder. It's a LOT of drag.

That's all those old guys talk about 20 hours a day: "slip" and "drag".

I'm not saying I don't use the mainsheet, but even on that sail I tend to move the traveler out first so the sail presents itself to the wind after the nose of the boat - to point high - you move the traveler to the opposite side of the boom to make the sail present itself BEFORE the nose. The nose of the boat will find the wind sooner or later, (that's called rounding up - you all know that), the question is HOW SOON will the nose of the boat find the wind? When you change the position of the traveler your actually changing the position of the boat under the sail, as opposed to changing the position of the sail above the boat. This will help the nose find the wind before the main sail does.

As for the air pressure on the back of the main? Well, the main (or wing) in most cases has more air pressure on the side facing the wind and less on the back. Pulling in the headsail too tight against the main causes the air pressure on the back of the main to go up, (that's bad). Letting the headsail fly well ahead of the main is better. It really gets obvious when you run a big genoa that wraps all the way back well behind the mast - then you can really see the genoa blow air into the back of the main. That's why the ropes on genoas must be well outside the boat out over the water wheras on a working jib all the hardware is right there on top of the boat close to the middle.

Another reason working jibs are good "working" sails - they never backwind the main so in a good blow the guy with the working jib wins the race over a guy that flys his genoa hauled in as tight as he can get it.
That's just been my experience. It might not be the same for others.

[BOAT]

Boat,

Your comment about having to go to the low side to adjust the working sheet makes me think of (particularly when single handing) cross sheeting the head sail. I've thought of this before, but never set up any hardware for it, but it seems like cross sheeting would be really handy when alone on the boat in a blow.

Your thoughts on on this

Best Breezes,
Steve K.

Hi Steve,
I use no winch or turn block on the genny. The block is on the slider track and the line goes directly from the track block to a swivel cleat mounted on the back of the same track. The MAC26 is about as big a boat as I can go with a winchless genny, anything bigger and I would need at least a turn block.
I find the Genoa on the MAC M right at the point where a guy can haul it in without a winch, but without a glove your hands are gonna get red. My wife can NOT haul in the Genoa. Those may be called "disadvantages".
Now, for the 'advantages' of this set up: the skipper can release the genny from anywhere in the pit by just finding the jibsheet (usually laying near your feet somewhere) and pulling it out of the cleat. The genny goes forward and the boat relaxes - and then your sitting there with a line in your hands that you can use to feel the pressure of the wind. It's a great feeling, and all the while your main is still pushing you along at a good clip! This is the best time to set your headsail, while your MOVING, because the wind on a MOVING boat is not the same as the wind on a boat that is not moving.
So you got that line in your hands, PULL ON IT! See where the wind lies! Become part of the boat! When your holding that line you become the connection between the wind and the sail and the boat! You put intelligence in that connection and that's also how the boat talks to you. Does the boat feel 'heavy'? (Lot's of pressure on the line but little headway). Or does the boat feel light? (The line is easy to pull and the boat is going fast). The faster your going the lighter the line may feel and the more you might think to 'haul in' tighter but fight that feeling, watch your speed - if the lines are light and the boat is going fast your good! No need to haul in and slow the boat down. You need to play with it and figure it out - each boat is a little different depending on the conditions of your sails and the condition of your hull. (A dirty hull feels on the lines like there are 5 for people on board.)
Anyways, use this time when the jibsheet is loose in your hands to rest the furler - play with jib sheet in one hand and the furler line in the other - as you fly the genny (let it luff out so it's easy to furl) you pull in the furler - then pull back on the jibsheet - back and forth till you get it just right. So many times when the wind is really really strong you play this game on ANY boat and end up with a patch of a headsail that is the same size as a WORKING JIB!! THAT'S WHY THE BOAT BUILDER DESIGNED A WORKING JIB IN THE FIRST PLACE!
If the line is too hard to pull and your alone use the turn block and then bring the jibsheet all the way over to the opposite cabin winch and cleat it at the top of the cabin on your side - the line blocks the pit but who cares if your alone? I have done this before but I have found if I need that much power to get the headsail to stop luffing it usually means I have too much headsail out in the first place.
sorry I wrote this fast with no spell check.

[stone_love]

I find that on my V21 dumping the main takes too long, by the time the main dumps out enough i'm already heeling enough to scare everyone on board including myself. It seems that i have to help push the mast out to get it to spill enough.

I usually just let go of the jib sheets, right then she looses half her power. I wouldn't do this in an area too close to land/obstruction as you lose steering ability.

When it's gusty I always reef first, i can always shake it out later.

I wish i had a roller furling. On windy days I can't really reef my OEM hank on jib so i have a jib off of a lazer 19 that works for my heavy wind days.

The use of cassette or VHS tape on your standing rigging is a good indicator of wind direction when you are in panic mode. A quick glance and turn into the direction that the tape is flying. Much quicker than visualizing points of sail or holding a wet finger in the air.


I've also found on days where it's gusty and i can't really set my sails to one position comfortably I keep as close to the wind as possible. Keep my sails flat to spill off as much as possible and before tacking make sure i have my main let out plenty. For running down wind run as close to directly down wind as possible keeping your main sheet tight and sailing with only the head sail.

I like to push my limits but only when i'm sailing solo. I like having the family on board and that will only happen if I keep them comfortable. While i like heeling 20-25 degrees they are not happy over 10-15. I like seeing 7-8 knots on the GPS, they are fine with 3-4 knots at the most.