GPS,Depth,fishfinder
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aya16
- Admiral
- Posts: 1362
- Joined: Fri Feb 18, 2005 6:29 am
- Location: LONG BEACH CALIF Mac M 04 WHITE
Moe I think your missing a few things here definitely not in the detail of your well-researched post but the fact that People have used the chart plotters for years and anyone that would rely solely on that for navigation should get a reality check. Just like the people that went on the cruise ship and hit the swell. Stuff happens and to rely on a chart plotter as your primary source of info is lame. And now IM being dragged to the extremes with you. First I doubt if I or anyone here that doesnt live in Guam is going to go there in our Macs.
Nauticpatch claims detailed coverage along with Lowrance. Now since neither you nor I have seen this yet, time will tell.
Second if I was stuck in fog off the coast of California a chart plotter would
Come in handy but you know what, been there done that and the reality is its still scary. Glad I was very familiar with the area and had paper charts.
Where do you plan to sail where youre going to need all that Garmin? I meen come on you plan on a trip to Canada in your little Mac. 100 mile days 3-4 days at sea or in your case in the Great Lakes. These little boats are day sailors with 30-40 mile range a day. Where could you possibly use the Garmin for real? I know it tells you where there are restaurants near by but really come on. Nauticpath even if it doesnt have the detail of your Garmin would work as good if not better then the Garmin. Hence its no more than a toy. I would be willing to bet that you have never needed nor will need that Garmin for any serious navigation. Youre going to be in a sailboat you go where the wind takes you. and it aint far.
I have read all the posts here for a year or so before I ever joined. I have been awestruck with the enormous amount of information you provide
In almost every one of your posts. But there seems to be a clear lack of common sense in allot of them. I have in practice Modified and used my halyard led aft on my M, and I was floored when you just said it wont work and dismissed the idea with charts and graphs and tons of info. But you know what it does work and I wonder how many people that have new Ms dismissed the Idea cause you said it didnt work. And now are still looking for a solution to the rotating mast problem with line led aft.
I also feel as though you have this on going thought that its my way or the highway when it comes to any idea suggested by others that you think is un workable.
I can go on but then I become like you chained to this mentality of seeking perfection when there is none in this world.
I believe you are questioning my experience with this fine sport we do. Well heres a clue IM still learning. And you know what, I hope I still have the ability to keep learning as time goes on.
Moe word of advice wanted or not continue your great informative posts, but put some real miles on your boat relax let the world pass you by for a day. And if the Garmin or anything else screws up that day let it go you dont need it anyway. And if the Lowrance or any other machine turns out to be a better item, so what. But give the new people here a chance to learn from others or all the Macs will look like yours.
I could have been meaner.....
Respectfully Mike
Nauticpatch claims detailed coverage along with Lowrance. Now since neither you nor I have seen this yet, time will tell.
Second if I was stuck in fog off the coast of California a chart plotter would
Come in handy but you know what, been there done that and the reality is its still scary. Glad I was very familiar with the area and had paper charts.
Where do you plan to sail where youre going to need all that Garmin? I meen come on you plan on a trip to Canada in your little Mac. 100 mile days 3-4 days at sea or in your case in the Great Lakes. These little boats are day sailors with 30-40 mile range a day. Where could you possibly use the Garmin for real? I know it tells you where there are restaurants near by but really come on. Nauticpath even if it doesnt have the detail of your Garmin would work as good if not better then the Garmin. Hence its no more than a toy. I would be willing to bet that you have never needed nor will need that Garmin for any serious navigation. Youre going to be in a sailboat you go where the wind takes you. and it aint far.
I have read all the posts here for a year or so before I ever joined. I have been awestruck with the enormous amount of information you provide
In almost every one of your posts. But there seems to be a clear lack of common sense in allot of them. I have in practice Modified and used my halyard led aft on my M, and I was floored when you just said it wont work and dismissed the idea with charts and graphs and tons of info. But you know what it does work and I wonder how many people that have new Ms dismissed the Idea cause you said it didnt work. And now are still looking for a solution to the rotating mast problem with line led aft.
I also feel as though you have this on going thought that its my way or the highway when it comes to any idea suggested by others that you think is un workable.
I can go on but then I become like you chained to this mentality of seeking perfection when there is none in this world.
I believe you are questioning my experience with this fine sport we do. Well heres a clue IM still learning. And you know what, I hope I still have the ability to keep learning as time goes on.
Moe word of advice wanted or not continue your great informative posts, but put some real miles on your boat relax let the world pass you by for a day. And if the Garmin or anything else screws up that day let it go you dont need it anyway. And if the Lowrance or any other machine turns out to be a better item, so what. But give the new people here a chance to learn from others or all the Macs will look like yours.
I could have been meaner.....
Respectfully Mike
An in-hull transducer can shoot through bottom paint. In fact, you can even use water-based anti-fouling paint on transom-mount transducers (solvent based paint can attack the plastic). Airmar does caution, however, that the paint should not be sprayed on because spraying traps small air bubbles that could interfere with its operation. I'd assume the same may be true for bottom paint on the hull where an in-hull would shoot through.
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Moe
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Moe
Where to install a thru-hull transducer on a 26M?
Where should I install my thru-hull transducer on my 26 
?
I have a small clean hull area on either side of my transom-water ballast tank, but this would position it about 1 1/2 feet from the keel line.
Or should I plumbers putty it just on top of the water ballast tank near the stern (or further forward)?
Would appreciate hearing about the results of those who have installed
a thru-hull on their.
?I have a small clean hull area on either side of my transom-water ballast tank, but this would position it about 1 1/2 feet from the keel line.
Or should I plumbers putty it just on top of the water ballast tank near the stern (or further forward)?
Would appreciate hearing about the results of those who have installed
a thru-hull on their
.Micheal,
- You're certainly entitled to your opinion that using a chartplotter as the primary source of navigation information is lame. Times have changed. The United States Power Squadron's Piloting and Advanced Piloting courses have been rewritten to reflect that, putting more emphasis on chartplotters and chartplotting software, without discounting, and while still covering, the critical skills of paper chart navigation. Obviously, USPS doesn't consider them a "toy."
- The point of mentioning Guam was to illustrate that the cartography from the major vendors isn't identical. In the case of Guam, only C-Map covers it.
- Your focus on me using chartplotters 100 miles offshore and 3-4 days at sea misses the whole point. That's actually the area where you need one the least... where you have time to take Lat/Long from a non-plotting GPS and plot it on a paper chart. Where you benefit most from detailed cartography is inshore. For example, in a narrow, winding channel at night or in the fog. It's much better to be steering from detailed cartography on a chartplotting GPS at the helm, than to have someone below plotting your course on a paper chart and yelling steering directions up to you. They're of much better use on watch at the bow. Without good cartography, the base map of even a chartplotting GPS comes up WAY short. The detail is very coarse. Points of land, coves, and even whole harbors, may be missing, not to mention hazards and nav-aids. So to answer your question, where I use all that Garmin detail (or would use Navionics or C-Map detail on another brand) is primarily along the coast and in harbors.
- If we go back to the Main halyard aft - 26M thread, and look at what I wrote, I never said a main halyard couldn't be led aft on an M. I endorsed a couple of solutions and even got "violent agreement"
from one M owner. I didn't even say YOUR solution "wouldn't work." I DID, however, point out a problem with your use of a cam cleat way up forward on the mast and even illustrated it with a drawing. Both Paul S and Chip Hindes shared that concern. So to say there are M owners out there that don't have the main halyard led aft because of me, is really grasping at straws. They may have chosen not to use YOUR arrangement though. Enough of the off-topic "M lines aft" in this thread.
- It's not "my way or the highway." I try to give objective pros and cons, and have done so in this thread, acknowledging Duane's PPC solution, which is not my choice. Frank C and I differ strongly on the Lowrance versus Garmin issue without getting personal. Let's try to do the same here.
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Moe
- You're certainly entitled to your opinion that using a chartplotter as the primary source of navigation information is lame. Times have changed. The United States Power Squadron's Piloting and Advanced Piloting courses have been rewritten to reflect that, putting more emphasis on chartplotters and chartplotting software, without discounting, and while still covering, the critical skills of paper chart navigation. Obviously, USPS doesn't consider them a "toy."
- The point of mentioning Guam was to illustrate that the cartography from the major vendors isn't identical. In the case of Guam, only C-Map covers it.
- Your focus on me using chartplotters 100 miles offshore and 3-4 days at sea misses the whole point. That's actually the area where you need one the least... where you have time to take Lat/Long from a non-plotting GPS and plot it on a paper chart. Where you benefit most from detailed cartography is inshore. For example, in a narrow, winding channel at night or in the fog. It's much better to be steering from detailed cartography on a chartplotting GPS at the helm, than to have someone below plotting your course on a paper chart and yelling steering directions up to you. They're of much better use on watch at the bow. Without good cartography, the base map of even a chartplotting GPS comes up WAY short. The detail is very coarse. Points of land, coves, and even whole harbors, may be missing, not to mention hazards and nav-aids. So to answer your question, where I use all that Garmin detail (or would use Navionics or C-Map detail on another brand) is primarily along the coast and in harbors.
- If we go back to the Main halyard aft - 26M thread, and look at what I wrote, I never said a main halyard couldn't be led aft on an M. I endorsed a couple of solutions and even got "violent agreement"
from one M owner. I didn't even say YOUR solution "wouldn't work." I DID, however, point out a problem with your use of a cam cleat way up forward on the mast and even illustrated it with a drawing. Both Paul S and Chip Hindes shared that concern. So to say there are M owners out there that don't have the main halyard led aft because of me, is really grasping at straws. They may have chosen not to use YOUR arrangement though. Enough of the off-topic "M lines aft" in this thread.- It's not "my way or the highway." I try to give objective pros and cons, and have done so in this thread, acknowledging Duane's PPC solution, which is not my choice. Frank C and I differ strongly on the Lowrance versus Garmin issue without getting personal. Let's try to do the same here.
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Moe
Last edited by Moe on Thu Apr 21, 2005 8:53 am, edited 1 time in total.
tidalwave, would you please clarify for me whether you have a "through-hull," transducer i.e. one that sits on the outside of the hull, usually in a fairing, and requires a hole to be drilled through the hull for the cable, or an "in-hull" i.e. one that sits on the inside of the hull, shooting through it, without requiring a hole in the hull. The solutions are different for each.
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Moe
--
Moe
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aya16
- Admiral
- Posts: 1362
- Joined: Fri Feb 18, 2005 6:29 am
- Location: LONG BEACH CALIF Mac M 04 WHITE
Moe still dont seem to grasp my point here When would you ever have someone down below yelling out coarse corrections? Again where are you going to go in that little Mac that you would NEED that Garmin. You study the map you make some notes and you go. With a 5 inch 7 inch even a 10-inch screen even zoomed in does not give you the big pitch.
As far as personnel, Maybe you dont realize how personnel you get with some of your posts.
As far as the lines led aft, Why would a comment in this area from you about The workability of this Mod be warranted anyway? You dont have an M you never sailed or worked on an M you never took your X out it doesnt have a rotating mast. So the opinion you have about the workability of this mod is just that. An Opinion. No practical hands on experience in this area.
This would apply to a lot of your posts. You have dreams and thats fine but Im telling you real life experience on these boats is what brings home
The truth about what works and doesnt. And what you need and dont.
I would venture to guess that my original post on this thread pointing out the things I know or found out with the Garmin/ lowrance. Had you spend the whole day finding all the info you posted. Why?
A simple (if the nauticpath software turns out to be as they claim, would make the charting software companies rethink their price structure) Or something like that. No you dismiss the whole thing and go back to how great the Garmin is, Its like you need to be right, and thats not why I posted the info. Only to show other options. Relax use some common sense. These little boats are limited, They are great for a weekend, a week, maybe a month but were not going to use them In a manner that requires major chart plotting or all the power that your Garmin or lowrance or any other plotter has. Sure its neat that the plotter will show you wrecks and plot a course to follow but the reality of sailboats even under power is we dont follow a white line its a zig zag course at best you will see when you venture out someday. hull there are world reachable sailboats in my marina that are equipped with double radar double everything two Boston whalers for dingys, every thing you would need to navigate the world yet they go to Catalina twice a year and thats it.
I know you dream and in the dreams everything is perfect, I do the same, but when you live that dream Its never the same, and you seem to be the kind of guy that doesnt take disappointment well. So again Moe relax Go take your boat out sail around with the main for awhile. Get the feel for it and then come back and post about the wonderful time you had. And we will all share your good time. I get a headache from all the thinking you do, I cant imagine what its doing to you. Go out blow some of those farts you were talking about, or come out to California and Ill take you for a ride. Do something, The world wont come to an end if we dont hear about the tensile strength of the halyard on the 2001 X boat. Dont get me wrong you contribute good stuff for a lot of people but sometimes you got to do for yourself. And I feel you need to put your brain on the back burner and suck in some life so that the next time I post a well thought out Wonder I dont have to look over my shoulder and see you climbing the walls. I do have compassion for ya "but compassion is a virtue and I dont have the time". If you know who said that Moe than you really need a break. "Good luck buddy"
Mike
That last one was from Independence Day.
As far as personnel, Maybe you dont realize how personnel you get with some of your posts.
As far as the lines led aft, Why would a comment in this area from you about The workability of this Mod be warranted anyway? You dont have an M you never sailed or worked on an M you never took your X out it doesnt have a rotating mast. So the opinion you have about the workability of this mod is just that. An Opinion. No practical hands on experience in this area.
This would apply to a lot of your posts. You have dreams and thats fine but Im telling you real life experience on these boats is what brings home
The truth about what works and doesnt. And what you need and dont.
I would venture to guess that my original post on this thread pointing out the things I know or found out with the Garmin/ lowrance. Had you spend the whole day finding all the info you posted. Why?
A simple (if the nauticpath software turns out to be as they claim, would make the charting software companies rethink their price structure) Or something like that. No you dismiss the whole thing and go back to how great the Garmin is, Its like you need to be right, and thats not why I posted the info. Only to show other options. Relax use some common sense. These little boats are limited, They are great for a weekend, a week, maybe a month but were not going to use them In a manner that requires major chart plotting or all the power that your Garmin or lowrance or any other plotter has. Sure its neat that the plotter will show you wrecks and plot a course to follow but the reality of sailboats even under power is we dont follow a white line its a zig zag course at best you will see when you venture out someday. hull there are world reachable sailboats in my marina that are equipped with double radar double everything two Boston whalers for dingys, every thing you would need to navigate the world yet they go to Catalina twice a year and thats it.
I know you dream and in the dreams everything is perfect, I do the same, but when you live that dream Its never the same, and you seem to be the kind of guy that doesnt take disappointment well. So again Moe relax Go take your boat out sail around with the main for awhile. Get the feel for it and then come back and post about the wonderful time you had. And we will all share your good time. I get a headache from all the thinking you do, I cant imagine what its doing to you. Go out blow some of those farts you were talking about, or come out to California and Ill take you for a ride. Do something, The world wont come to an end if we dont hear about the tensile strength of the halyard on the 2001 X boat. Dont get me wrong you contribute good stuff for a lot of people but sometimes you got to do for yourself. And I feel you need to put your brain on the back burner and suck in some life so that the next time I post a well thought out Wonder I dont have to look over my shoulder and see you climbing the walls. I do have compassion for ya "but compassion is a virtue and I dont have the time". If you know who said that Moe than you really need a break. "Good luck buddy"
Mike
That last one was from Independence Day.
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aya16
- Admiral
- Posts: 1362
- Joined: Fri Feb 18, 2005 6:29 am
- Location: LONG BEACH CALIF Mac M 04 WHITE
Moe im going to let this go after this post cause I think its boring everyone. Look I would not use a chart plotter in the fog going up a small channel form buoy to buoy. No one in his or her right mind would. I have used GPS for 20 or so years and even with todays new rules with the sats. Your going to find out that that buoy your looking for is 100 feet away from where your chart plotter says it is. So you end up navigating through by Braille with the rocks around you. Point: you dont do those kinds of things you wait till theres better chance to get in. or you dont go at all.
The US government at will can knock your signal off by as much as a mile or so...dont trust them with your life.
dont go into harms way if you can help it.
And if you are in harms way find another solution besides the GPS.
In those situations the only things you can trust is your eyes and ears and even at that dont believe everything.
Sure 9 times at of ten you can trust your instruments, like pilots do but what about that tenth time. And if you ever get into the situation that you described I would be willing to bet your straining your eyes and hearing way more than studying the chart plotter. I know I have done that.
Chart plotter no, GPS with paper maps all the time. I try and stay out of harms way everytime.
I know this stuff makes for great thinking scenario stuff but when you go out and the simplicity of it all will come to you honest trust me on this.
Go out Moe see the stars watch for bikini clad babes enjoy your self.
I want nothing but the best for ya.
The US government at will can knock your signal off by as much as a mile or so...dont trust them with your life.
dont go into harms way if you can help it.
And if you are in harms way find another solution besides the GPS.
In those situations the only things you can trust is your eyes and ears and even at that dont believe everything.
Sure 9 times at of ten you can trust your instruments, like pilots do but what about that tenth time. And if you ever get into the situation that you described I would be willing to bet your straining your eyes and hearing way more than studying the chart plotter. I know I have done that.
Chart plotter no, GPS with paper maps all the time. I try and stay out of harms way everytime.
I know this stuff makes for great thinking scenario stuff but when you go out and the simplicity of it all will come to you honest trust me on this.
Go out Moe see the stars watch for bikini clad babes enjoy your self.
I want nothing but the best for ya.
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waternwaves
- Admiral
- Posts: 1499
- Joined: Wed Oct 13, 2004 8:18 pm
- Location: X less in North Puget Sound -have to sail other boats for a while
Hey guys.....
Before I develop a bad case of oral podiatrics.....I Think I can say I have a good handle on the garmin,raymarine and "cellulose/PVC" charting systems.. lol
And While I can see that eventually, electronic charting will be the norm...
It's not that day yet....
Now admittedly, for me.. I tend to have a preference for Electronics and augment their info whenever possible...
But truthfully....Chart plotting software that can run at the helm....has insufficient detail. insufficient weatherability, and speed of use. and I believe that in the next 10 years we will see most of these obstacles overcome.
When I am powerboating, paper is still faster, and on screen data entry, tracking, position updating and area views TAKE TOO DAMN LONG on the available equipment, compared to my instant glance that gives me all the data I need.... and the relative Time & distance direction to the hazards that I am avoiding...lol.
Sailing I have a little more time between events possibly, .....but I am messing with more on the boat, observing surface disturbances, sail shape, rigging trim., and trying to enjoy not doing as much....lol.....so it seems
SO for me now...electronic charting is relagated to in the cabin on the laptop, and enroutee navigation is full chart/guide, and pedestal and handheld GPS checks...
I can see both sides of this issue.....but if you are already extremely accurate and fast in your charting...the availble market offerings put a big dent in my play budget...lol....., and just don't cut it yet.,
A good waterproof map case and tether puts a lot of information at ones fingertips....lol.....and no slow menus to slither through.....
But I do enjoy plotting it all on the laptop before hand....lol to figure out where I want to go...lol
Oh well, maybe in a couple of years.
JMHO
|>
Before I develop a bad case of oral podiatrics.....I Think I can say I have a good handle on the garmin,raymarine and "cellulose/PVC" charting systems.. lol
And While I can see that eventually, electronic charting will be the norm...
It's not that day yet....
Now admittedly, for me.. I tend to have a preference for Electronics and augment their info whenever possible...
But truthfully....Chart plotting software that can run at the helm....has insufficient detail. insufficient weatherability, and speed of use. and I believe that in the next 10 years we will see most of these obstacles overcome.
When I am powerboating, paper is still faster, and on screen data entry, tracking, position updating and area views TAKE TOO DAMN LONG on the available equipment, compared to my instant glance that gives me all the data I need.... and the relative Time & distance direction to the hazards that I am avoiding...lol.
Sailing I have a little more time between events possibly, .....but I am messing with more on the boat, observing surface disturbances, sail shape, rigging trim., and trying to enjoy not doing as much....lol.....so it seems
SO for me now...electronic charting is relagated to in the cabin on the laptop, and enroutee navigation is full chart/guide, and pedestal and handheld GPS checks...
I can see both sides of this issue.....but if you are already extremely accurate and fast in your charting...the availble market offerings put a big dent in my play budget...lol....., and just don't cut it yet.,
A good waterproof map case and tether puts a lot of information at ones fingertips....lol.....and no slow menus to slither through.....
But I do enjoy plotting it all on the laptop before hand....lol to figure out where I want to go...lol
Oh well, maybe in a couple of years.
JMHO
|>
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Frank C
For anyone who habitually skips past URL links, Divecoz linked to a couple of pages that disclose GPS chart errors. IN the first place, the Bahamas are notorious for having the least reliable charts in the well-traveled world. There's no mystery or revelation there ... do your reading, and act accordingly. (If you don't have subscriptions to Sail and Sailing mags, and read them cover to cover w/i two days of arrival, then you're simply not dedicated! I had read both of the articles referred to on the webpage, especially Nigel Calder's regarding GPS zoom).
Second, the charts are the bible for dead reckoning. Where charts are in error a GPS will run you blissfully aground. But dead reckoning from them will reflect the same errors.
Third, my use of GPS is not blind (as if in a submarine - tho that begs the question if a sub is watching those dozen satellites - and HOW, one wonders). Anyway, back to the 3rd point, I use a GPS TO ENHANCE those most basic tools of dead reckoning - my EYES 'n EARS! When navigating inshore, dead reckoning is a bit like braille --- you're not going to find a harbor entrance in the fog by plotting on your chart. You'll be using eyes, ears and maybe nose.
Finally, I don't use a GPS at 33 knots, or even at 20 knots. It is used at a speed prudent to conditions, just as driving at night - don't use speed beyond those headlights!
In one little scenario from those URLs, the author describes a USA Boomer that "hit" an obstruction (going 33 knots) at 500' depth where charts showed 1,000 fathoms. I find this rather hard to believe ... but then I've never been aboard any Navy vessel. Nonetheless, would not a half-billion dollar underwater vessel be using sonar, in addition to charts and mapping electronics?
Second, the charts are the bible for dead reckoning. Where charts are in error a GPS will run you blissfully aground. But dead reckoning from them will reflect the same errors.
Third, my use of GPS is not blind (as if in a submarine - tho that begs the question if a sub is watching those dozen satellites - and HOW, one wonders). Anyway, back to the 3rd point, I use a GPS TO ENHANCE those most basic tools of dead reckoning - my EYES 'n EARS! When navigating inshore, dead reckoning is a bit like braille --- you're not going to find a harbor entrance in the fog by plotting on your chart. You'll be using eyes, ears and maybe nose.
Finally, I don't use a GPS at 33 knots, or even at 20 knots. It is used at a speed prudent to conditions, just as driving at night - don't use speed beyond those headlights!
In one little scenario from those URLs, the author describes a USA Boomer that "hit" an obstruction (going 33 knots) at 500' depth where charts showed 1,000 fathoms. I find this rather hard to believe ... but then I've never been aboard any Navy vessel. Nonetheless, would not a half-billion dollar underwater vessel be using sonar, in addition to charts and mapping electronics?