Mainsail raising issues

A forum for discussion of how to rig and tune your boat or kicker to achieve the best sailing performance.
Post Reply
User avatar
seahouse
Admiral
Posts: 2182
Joined: Sun Dec 07, 2008 9:17 pm
Sailboat: MacGregor 26M
Location: Niagara at Lake Erie, Ontario. 2011 MacM, 60 hp E-Tec
Contact:

Re: Mainsail raising issues

Post by seahouse »

Hey BOAT! Nice pictures, thanks for posting them. (Even though it's rubbing in the fact that you have no snow there). :D :x

Is there a way to reef the main with a non-sailslug sail that has had the tack tucked into the lower slot? I can't see how that's (conveniently) possible once the boom has been fed (and without a loose-footed main). I would conclude that it's something you wouldn't really want to do if it precludes reefing, something you want to be prepared to do at any time, and on short notice?

1st Sail - The spacing between the sailslugs dictates the pitch of the sail when it's flaking over the boom, so if you added more slugs you would want to take that into consideration. More slugs would mean more folds and a narrower, taller, tipsier sail stack. Maybe it was dumb luck (I doubt it) but my sail flakes nicely at the pitch the dealer installed them at, counting the battens in.

I'm thinking that air movement through the gap the slugs create could be easily prevented by installing a length of rigid mylar tape along the luff. That is, if you wanted to put the effort into gleening the best from both worlds.

-B. :wink:

ps. superstition, RobertB. 8)
User avatar
1st Sail
Captain
Posts: 680
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 11:58 am
Sailboat: MacGregor 26M
Location: Moline, IL '06M 50hp Etec
Contact:

Re: Mainsail raising issues

Post by 1st Sail »

Good point I did not think the about the effect of flaking the sail. Mine flakes very well as a result of the distance between the slugs. I admit I will make every effort to squeak the last bit of speed possible. But I am still learning so speed is my measure of effective sail handling vs. optimal heel. With friends and family it's just about the moment and moving the boat is secondary. Thanks for catching my error.
User avatar
Russ
Admiral
Posts: 8302
Joined: Thu Oct 11, 2007 12:01 pm
Sailboat: MacGregor 26M
Location: Bozeman, Montana "Luna Azul" 2008 M 70hp Suzi

Re: Mainsail raising issues

Post by Russ »

I really like this idea to keep the furler off the deck. I put a big scratch in my black gelcoat of the deck from that thing.

What kind of boats did you race on? The only boat that I sailed with a bolt rope was a 14' Force 5. Every other boat used slugs for convenience. Frankly, the words "race" and "Macgregor" elicits a lot of laughter among the racer community.
Our boats sail like pigs and the extra 2% isn't going to make her sail fast enough to actually compete in a race.
To each is own. I like the ability to raise and lower the main quickly, flake it over the boom and anchor for lunch. Then raise it again from the cockpit and be sailing again. I'll leave the deck calisthenics to the younger sailors. Too many times I've had to drop that thing in a hurry in bouncy seas. The admiral wants me in the cockpit as much as possible.

Thanks for the pictures. It reaffirms my belief that I do NOT want to do that. It does look nicer tight against the mast though.
BOAT wrote:Image
Yea, thanks for rubbing it in that you can go sailing in February. :)
User avatar
seahouse
Admiral
Posts: 2182
Joined: Sun Dec 07, 2008 9:17 pm
Sailboat: MacGregor 26M
Location: Niagara at Lake Erie, Ontario. 2011 MacM, 60 hp E-Tec
Contact:

Re: Mainsail raising issues

Post by seahouse »

Thanks for catching my error.
1st Sail - I don't consider it to be an "error"- no mistake was made. Under circumstances where some considerations are given a different weighting than others, adding more slugs might be a perfect solution.

RussMT - Maybe my perception is not accurate, but historically Macgregors are fast boats by reputation. It's the powersailors, the X, and M's, that are less fast as sailboats because they are a compromise in design (and weight) for powering.

The 65', for example (the Mac flagship), actually has a negative handicap rating, and holds some speed records. For that matter, the X and M are fast for their class too - what else is in their class? -IIRC, the Hunter Edge has the same sailing performance handicap rating as the X (so crew skill, and not the boat itself is the variable), but can't touch it under power.
The Mac X and M are the fastest sailboats under power, and the fastest powerboats under sail. (OK, hope I'm not sounding like a broken record with that one again). :D

-B. :wink:
User avatar
BOAT
Admiral
Posts: 4969
Joined: Fri Oct 19, 2012 5:12 pm
Sailboat: MacGregor 26M
Location: Oceanside, CA MACMJ213 2013 ETEC60

Re: Mainsail raising issues

Post by BOAT »

I can't take credit for hanging the furler off the jin pole line. When I find the name of the skipper here on the blogs that turned me on to this I will post his name.

Yeah, it was real nice today - about 75 and good wind. We were at the harbor today. There was one guy with an old beat up 24 foot Jenson flush deck who got his centerboard hung on the trailer (his cable was rusted or something) and the guy actually raised the sails before backing down the launch ramp!! He sure looked stupid with that boat twisting around in the wind stuck to the trailer with all his laundry flying. MAN, I hate to see stuff like that.

Anyways, yes, you CAN reef the main with the tack tucked in. You can also drop the main real fast and having the tack tucked in actually keeps more of the sail on deck forward piled up on the boom and less of it spilling on the deck. But, I want to be honest with you - I do not reef the main with the tack tucked in.

Yes. The stock rig is a PITA - so what I do is let the sail spill down to the deck, unhook the boom, and slide the clew out and just stuff the main down the companionway and into the forward berth in a big ball. It's REALLY fast and I do it BEFORE I get anywhere near the dock. If I am going to sail in to the dock I have always come in on a headsail only. That's the way I was taught to come in - on headsail only because my dad was able to put the front of the boat in and out of a slip that way - and even make the boat go backwards. You can't do that with the main - a fractional rig will only heave-to with a headsail up. But really, it's better to use the motor.

As for the PITA part of the stock rig:

I will be modifying my boom so I can roll the main on the boom - but that is no panacea - you still must remove the tack from the slot to roll up the sail. BUT! If winds are so heavy that I think a reef is possible I would not be tucking in the tack anyways - we don't get much wind like that over here. I will be able to clip the main halyard block to the back of the boom, and crank the boom so it rolls up the sail. It's a very old trick - ANCIENT. The gooseneck mod is very simple and cheap.

As for racing:

We raced Sabots and Lido's as kids, then Hobie cats and finally P cats (very fast). My brother had Ericson and Hunters and my dad raced on his Aquarius 23 (a slug that makes the MAC look fast). And it was THAT boat that taught me the most because it required every trick in the book to get that fat bottomed pig to cross the line and place in class - and we did many times.

Sealing the main at the mast was a HUGE advantage in light winds with a heavy boat. Yes, it makes a big difference.

I will probably never get slugs, but I am getting older - so only time will tell. But, first I must get best speed out of this new MAC I have here - it's an obsession - I must get best speed out of any boat I own before I start modifications (adding weight).

I don't want to start with a compromised sail. Maybe later, (but I doubt it).
User avatar
seahouse
Admiral
Posts: 2182
Joined: Sun Dec 07, 2008 9:17 pm
Sailboat: MacGregor 26M
Location: Niagara at Lake Erie, Ontario. 2011 MacM, 60 hp E-Tec
Contact:

Re: Mainsail raising issues

Post by seahouse »

BOAT -

The mods I have done to the gooseneck joint sounds a lot like what you are describing, allowing the boom to rotate about its cental axis without flopping. It is one mod among a series (that I have not yet completed) that will enable winding the mainsail around the boom (which is what I have been doing this past season). Complete with crank, and hook at the end of the boom to engage the topping lift from the cockpit. Quick releases on the traveler and the vang. And it's the reason I did not purchase a mainsail furler with the boat - I don't like the sailing performance compromises associated with them, if I can avoid them.

There are as many solutions to luff control (and that is where the real challenge lies) as there are furlers on the market (5 that I have looked at, most made for larger boats), they are all different, but I have my own solutions that I will be playing with when the time comes - unfortunately I do have several burners going at once, and it's on the back one :cry: .

Interesting - I'd like to see your luff control solution...

-B. :wink:
User avatar
Dimitri-2000X-Tampa
Admiral
Posts: 2043
Joined: Fri Jan 02, 2004 5:36 am
Sailboat: MacGregor 26X
Location: Tampa, Florida 2000 Mercury BigFoot 50HP 4-Stroke on 26X hull# 3575.B000

Re: Mainsail raising issues

Post by Dimitri-2000X-Tampa »

I agree with Russ on the furler mod sliding down the mast raising line, i have just been using the excess sheets and tying it on the end of the gin pole to keep the furler up, but this takes some precious time and also once or twice it fell off, making a nice scratch in the boat. But I don't think you have what most of us 26X'ers have, which I believe is a FF2 furler or something like that, it doesn't have that vertical column (in open drum) to attach the caribiner too, ie the furler drum is enclosed most of the way around except a little opening where the furler line comes through.. Heck, this is the internet, I can steal a pic:

Image

So your furler looks like a better one than this cdi. Anyone done a similar mod with this cdi ff2? And if so, where did you attach the caribiner? I think it would be worth the hardware, in fact, I'm sure I have a few spare (low strength) caribiners lying around that would work for this.

Also, as an fyi, I frequently crew on a Soverel 30 racing boat down at DIYC (going out this afternoon and will double check) but I'm pretty sure he uses sail slugs and also does not have the (much larger/heavier than a Mac) boom attached to any sort of topping lift when the sail is raised. Now even on my mac, I use the winch to get that last few inches of tightness into the main.

Oh, and the other cool thing this racing boat has speaking about furlers...he has a setup where he can easily attach a furler to the forestay for cruising, but when he races, it comes off so that he can use a racing headsail that feeds boltrope into the track..so, effectively, the best of both worlds. Although I'm sure this is an expensive piece of hardware...but he is used to spending a ton of money on that boat. 8)
User avatar
BOAT
Admiral
Posts: 4969
Joined: Fri Oct 19, 2012 5:12 pm
Sailboat: MacGregor 26M
Location: Oceanside, CA MACMJ213 2013 ETEC60

Re: Mainsail raising issues

Post by BOAT »

The factory (MacGregor) commissioned their own design. This is the factory furler. The open spindle allows me to adjust the windings and it helps keep tangles away. It's very easy to operate and I can't imagine ever using a winch - it's just too easy to operate. The carabineer has a your typical snap eye with an open eye on the other end. It allows me to hang the furler and the open eye slides very smoothly:

Image

I just put some tension on the jin pole:

Image

Hang the furler from the line:

Image
User avatar
BOAT
Admiral
Posts: 4969
Joined: Fri Oct 19, 2012 5:12 pm
Sailboat: MacGregor 26M
Location: Oceanside, CA MACMJ213 2013 ETEC60

Re: Mainsail raising issues

Post by BOAT »

And crank er up. I like a nice tight sail (I run a tight ship). I have NEVER needed to winch up ANY MAIN. Even on an 80 foot Schooner (an 1812 Baltimore Clipper called the LYNX) the crew used the age old method of pulling the cleated halyard away from the mast and then quickly hauling in the slack into the cleat. I use the same practice. I would resort to a truckers hitch before I would EVER winch on a halyard. (I was taught to NEVER winch a halyard because you could damage your sail).

Image

As for the boom mod, those are already available. You just need to fit it to your type of rig. Unlike the mast, you do not want the boom to flop or rotate under sail, so the roller booms have a pin. It's a great way to stow a bolted main but again it is no panacea if you refuse to leave the cockpit because you must leave the cockpit to unpin the boom rotation before you can start cranking.

This was a very common accessory back in the 1960's but back then the boom was hung from a back stay tag, not a topping lift.

You can't use a rotating boom on a sail with slugs. The whole point of a roller boom is to pull the main out of the mast slot and roll up the sail onto the boom. With slugs you're stuck on the mast.

As for luff I still use the same reef points and there is a bow in the bottom of the sail, but hey, when you're REEFED who cares about the shape? At that point you already have more PSI than you need. I don't worry about a loose tack at times like that either.
User avatar
seahouse
Admiral
Posts: 2182
Joined: Sun Dec 07, 2008 9:17 pm
Sailboat: MacGregor 26M
Location: Niagara at Lake Erie, Ontario. 2011 MacM, 60 hp E-Tec
Contact:

Re: Mainsail raising issues

Post by seahouse »

BOAT -

I have not seen any boom mod on the market that converts the existing boom to a rotating one - maybe I missed one- can you point me to it? Most on the market are for larger boats that are able to tolerate more weight aloft. Or they have great efficiency losses by introducing way more than the 1/2" gap or so that sail slugs do. Or they have a separate roller that runs parallel to, and above the boom. Yoosh - but I guess it works. :o

I found a rotating boom works fine with slugs (I used it for most of last season) - but of course you need to provide an exit point (if you've closed it with a gate) from the mast slot, the same way you would with a bolt rope. The luff control issue I spoke of comes into play when you want to raise the main and guide the slugs into the slot. Without having to be present at the mast. That's the issue needing to be solved, and that's the issue that seems to be the monkey wrench in the gears of most commercially available systems too, according to reviews I've seen. None are perfect, and there have been some smart people, skilled in the art, working on it.

Having said that, I've been regularly sailing on 2 larger boats (Beneteaus) with in-mast furling (not appropriate for boats the size of our Macs) for at least the last 6 seasons, and they have performed essentially flawlessly. (Loose-footed main, of course).

I've come across a simple rotating boom mechanism on the market (CL boats) that fits into a square drive and square socket at the mast (sprung together) - you can just pull straight back on the boom to disengage the square directly from the cockpit and it then turns freely. No need to approach the mast. It's for small dinghies with small booms, though. But I have found that not to be needed on the Mac because the vang, which rotates with the mast, and traveller both pull downward on their bales to prevent the boom from rotating in the first place.

I have considered routing the main halyard up through the slot in the mast to eliminate the rotational tendencies that increase friction. But I won't be taking that route for sometime yet (out of keeping with the KISS principle), and hope I might see it in some other boats in the meantime. Anybody out there seen this? It seem logical that someone has done it. :)

The presence of the topping lift might seem to complicate things, but the way I've done it (proof of concept) is very simple, friction-free, and the crank attaches and detaches easily to the end of the boom (padeye) without any mods to it. That was the easy part. 8)

The main reason you don't see rotating booms on (larger) sailboats much any more is because they didn't work as well as other systems that came to the market, and they were problem-prone, so, they ultimately complicated an issue they were meant to simplify.

- B. :wink:
User avatar
BOAT
Admiral
Posts: 4969
Joined: Fri Oct 19, 2012 5:12 pm
Sailboat: MacGregor 26M
Location: Oceanside, CA MACMJ213 2013 ETEC60

Re: Mainsail raising issues

Post by BOAT »

Yes
Last edited by BOAT on Mon Aug 29, 2016 11:49 am, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
BOAT
Admiral
Posts: 4969
Joined: Fri Oct 19, 2012 5:12 pm
Sailboat: MacGregor 26M
Location: Oceanside, CA MACMJ213 2013 ETEC60

Re: Mainsail raising issues

Post by BOAT »

wrong post
Last edited by BOAT on Mon Feb 18, 2013 11:49 am, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
Highlander
Admiral
Posts: 5995
Joined: Wed Sep 21, 2005 8:25 pm
Sailboat: MacGregor 26M
Location: Maccutter26M 2008 75HP Merc. 4/S Victoria BC. Can. ' An Hileanto'ir III '
Contact:

Re: Mainsail raising issues

Post by Highlander »

When I lower & raise my mast I just use 2 bungy cords to hang my furlers from the gin pole rope !! :wink:

I have been looking @ this Ronstan trackless system have not priced it yet for a mac or checked to see if their is less gap
http://www.ronstan.us/marine5/range.asp ... #materials

Any one else checked this out

J 8)
User avatar
BOAT
Admiral
Posts: 4969
Joined: Fri Oct 19, 2012 5:12 pm
Sailboat: MacGregor 26M
Location: Oceanside, CA MACMJ213 2013 ETEC60

Re: Mainsail raising issues

Post by BOAT »

When Highlander says "fulrlers" he's not kidding. He has at least TWO! (And you think YOUR furler was a hassle to drag accross the deck, just imagine what it's like to step the mast with Highlander!) :D

I'm still torn on removing the spreaders to roll the mast. I have done with and without and without spreaders is a lot eisier but with spreaders prevents the mast from rotating. Which is better?
User avatar
seahouse
Admiral
Posts: 2182
Joined: Sun Dec 07, 2008 9:17 pm
Sailboat: MacGregor 26M
Location: Niagara at Lake Erie, Ontario. 2011 MacM, 60 hp E-Tec
Contact:

Re: Mainsail raising issues

Post by seahouse »

BOAT -

Nice of you to offer the part, thank you - I thought you were saying that the part was already available on the market, and not a custom-made part. I have already custom made the mentioned parts (it's within the line of my business). Of course, the object of the exercise for both of us is to handle the main efficiently without negatively affecting sailing performance. No system on the market, that I have seen to date, does that. :cry:

I have only used my setup to furl, not to reef (yet). I agree that once you've reefed a sail, then for the most part you have conceded that sail performance is taking second place to other priorities. But of course reefing does get you more speed, too. Even with, or without, lines led aft, I have not noticed that the halyard tension changes with the pivoting of the mast; maybe others here have noticed that? At least not to the degree that it has affected sail shape or wrinkling.

I decided to store my mainsail this winter in its position wrapped around the boom - I think it's less creasing than folding it and putting it in the sail bag, as I did previously. During the summer season it is stored safely away from sun and weather under its canvas cover when not in use. Of course, no matter what technique is chosen, they all are directed at minimizing the wrinkling and aging of the sail and preserving its "as new" performance (as good as, or as bad as, that might be).

Yes -leaving the cockpit- that is some of the best part of sailing for me too, but I don't want to have the boat dictate to me when to do it. It's a "I'm in charge of the boat" attitude as opposed to "the boat's in charge of me" thing. I'm going to guess that, as opposed to fear, or physical inability, that's the train of thought that others here share in that regard. The issue does not come into play for me -but in another 20+ years it might! :D I'll also add that I sail in an area where "accidentally" going overboard is good for a laugh and fun for most of the season, as opposed to possibly being a life-threatening ordeal.

Highlander - The Ronstan ball sliders do increase the gap over what it would be with plain sail slugs (looks to be at least twice in the photo), and you still feed them by hand into the mast slot of course. But that's got to be a nice smooth, frictionless system. 8)

- B. :wink:
Post Reply