Advice for engine problems

[Sea Wind]

Hey Guys,

I took the family out on the Chesapeake Bay and we had a great weekend crossing the bay and anchoring out until the very end of the trip.
The first sign was when I was pulling the anchor out I felt that the reverse was very weak, I attributed it to be in a very shallow waters (about 2.5 feet) and having the engine trimmed up. After that we motored perfectly fine at about 13 knots for a while. When I was about to arrive to the marina, I backed up before reaching the dock, but when I moved the throttle forward again, the boat kept going in reverse, even in neutral it kept going in reverse. Luckily, we were close enough and I turned off the engine and pulled the boat to the ramp by pushing through the pillars.

Once the boat was out of the water, I connected the ears and noticed that in neutral the propeller was spinning quite fast, I tried moving the throttle back and forward a couple of times but nothing seemed to change. I notice that the throttle was activating all the right parts in the outboard and reaching the stoppers the way it should, but the propeller keeps moving in one direction regardless of which position I have the throttle. I also checked for the spring pin in the shaft (the one that has to be removed for changing the impeller), but it was in place as usual.

I thought about the throttle cable, but don’t know why the propeller would keep spinning in neutral. Any advice would be greatly appreciated; I am trying to avoid a technician bill.

Even with the embarrassing arrival, the wife agrees that it was a nice weekend, so at least I am safe on that end.

Thanks,
Pedro

[Erik Hardtle]

Hey Pedro,
I used to have a similar issue with my Honda 50...

Even though you say "throttle" there should be two linkages... one that shifts and the other is throttle.

First I would suspect that the "shift" linkage needs to be adjusted either at the control console or in the engine (threaded rods). It is probably not putting it fully in neutral, and just enough in gear to move the prop but not fully enagaged.

Second.. there was a vertical threaded rod in my engine that ran down the back of the shaft that would vibrate out of its receiver (a long nut basically). #15 & #11 in the diagram below:


I found it by buying a seloc service manual for the motor from iboats.com. I would look at the shift linkage cable first... that is usually the culprit.

Hope it helps,
Erik

[seahouse]

My thoughts as well, Eric – check the shift linkage Pedro. It runs within the casing but outside the engine itself down to the top of the gearcase where the prop is. Or some part leading from the throttle connection to that linkage has separated, maybe you can trace it back between these points. Have someone shift back and forth (engine off) while you follow it along. Sorry, not being familiar with Tohatsu, I can’t be more specific than that.

[Catigale]

It isn't uncommon for props to spin in neutral from coupling of the fluid in the gearbox even if the throttle is in the neutral position .

There is a SAFE WAY to test to see if this happening .....than shut the engine off, wrap a towel around prop to hold, and restart. DON'T teven think about grabbing prop with your hands please!

[u12fly]

I would not try to stop the prop when running... Try this instead, with the engine OFF, turn the prop by hand. If it spins you are in neutral, if not you are in gear. Take the top cover off the motor, there is should be an attachment to for you throttle and gear selection on sepearte cables. There are several linkage adjustments there, what you looking for is a lock nut that may have backed off or a broken part... since it was working and then it stopped? It should not be to hard to find. Also, as mentioned, it could be the control rod going down from the engine to the lower gear case.

[133bhp]

Had similar just the other day on the tohastu - trim down, start up, into reverse, then forward, but still going in reverse!

No movment of gear change. The gear change control cable broke near the entry to the engine. I had to remove the cable end before I could manually shift the lever into neutral. I think the engine trim down that one time was enough to finally break the cable as was fine when was left from last trip. Both throttle and control were/are stiff so renweing both.

[Sea Wind]

Thanks guys. Went to the boat today after work. With engine off propeller does not turn by hand, I am pretty sure it is in reverse. When I turn on the engine, the propeller spins regardless if I am in neutral, forward or reverse gear. Shouldn't I be getting an alarm because it is starting on gear? Looked at the shift linkage and it moves one way when in forward and the opposite way in reverse so that looked normal. Lowered the lower unit to check the shift rod but everything seemed ok (not sure what I was looking for there); the only thing that I did notice is that the shaft felt hard to move, also the propeller shaft would move the driveshaft counterclockwise (reverse) but not clockwise, never noticed that before.

133bhp: that is exactly my situation but I can see the shift linkage moving forward and backward.
I will go for another round tomorrow and try to take a video

[seahouse]

The problem you are having is located after the neutral lockout switch (prevents starter engagement when in gear), so the system still “thinks” it’s in neutral and allows you to start it.

The vertical shaft will be hard to move by hand because it is still connected to the throttle control at the other end. These are not synchromesh gear types, so if the engine isn't running it might be hard to shift and engage gears even if there were nothing wrong.

Just so we are clear, when the throttle is moved forward into gear, and back into reverse, the vertical shift rod is moving up and down as well, and stops in the middle for neutral? It’s easier if you have a helper to confirm this.

If that is so, then the problem is in the lower unit, but I don’t know how far down you can see, so it might still be just outside (above) the gearcase (which would be a good thing). Just a reminder that I've never seen the inside of a Tohatsu, so I'm giving generic info here.

- Brian.

[133bhp]

well as the gear linkage appears okay (and not just rotaing on the shaft somewhow?) that would suggest the lower unit then as mentioned? Guess similar a tohastu? I would pop off the clip and disscontect the gear cable at the engine, manually shift and turn the prop over at the same time if need be? If the gear lever is movng freely but not doing anything, the linkage may be broke/come away as per Erik mentioned?


I assume you mean the engine stuck in gear but the controller still has to be in the nuetral position to start right ? as the switch is on the controleer as mentioned, this would be normal if the gears not connected for any reason.

good luck

[Sea Wind]

Bad news, the problem is the lower unit. After I checked all the good advice from the board, I ended up taking it to the mechanic and he said that the gears are fried. He found plenty of metal on the lower unit oil. The damage is going to be $2500 for a new lower unit which makes me debate going for a new engine. The cost of new parts for the current unit was higher than a new unit. The other problem (besides paying the new engine) is that I don't think that I could get much for the powerhead alone even though the mechanic said that it was in good shape. Time to start reviewing older threads: which brand?, 70 or 90hp?, fuel consumption?, etc.
In the meantime I am grounded. Stay tuned...

[Don T]

Hello,
First, the diagnosis and your description of symptoms do not agree.
If the lower unit is locked up then the control would not operate normally.
If the gears are seized then the prop should not have any play / slop when turning by hand. Normally the prop can be turned a few degrees before the shift dogs engage.

Second, $2500 for replacing a gear set in the lower housing seems pretty steep to me. I'll check on parts pricing when I have time today and post them.

[vkmaynard]

Use that as an exuse to get a Suzuki 90

Hurry up and fix it before the NC Pirate sail!

Victor

[dlandersson]

There's always...as a make do for the season...

http://www.amazon.com/Minn-Kota-Freshwa ... ing+motors

Bad news, the problem is the lower unit. After I checked all the good advice from the board, I ended up taking it to the mechanic and he said that the gears are fried. He found plenty of metal on the lower unit oil. The damage is going to be $2500 for a new lower unit which makes me debate going for a new engine. The cost of new parts for the current unit was higher than a new unit. The other problem (besides paying the new engine) is that I don't think that I could get much for the powerhead alone even though the mechanic said that it was in good shape. Time to start reviewing older threads: which brand?, 70 or 90hp?, fuel consumption?, etc.
In the meantime I am grounded. Stay tuned...

[Sea Wind]

Don T: thanks for the response. Apparently, the vertical rod has been moving up and down but engaging in the wrong place, hence eating the teeth from the shafts and damaging something else that I did not understand. This is why the propeller was hard to move and did not shift gears even though the vertical rod was trying to engage the forward gear, per the mechanic. His estimate was based on new parts and labor which includes flushing the lower unit compared with installing a new lower unit.

Victor: that option is still on the table, but have to find the right charity for sailors in distress. On a more serious note, it does not seem to make a lot of sense to spend $2500 on a lower unit on an 12 year old engine that is valued at around $2000.

dlandersson: On a similar note, I was thinking about finally getting a kicker for the dinghy and putting it on a fulton stand. It would get me through the season, but I would still have to deal with the engine in the winter.

[Whipsyjac]

I just had a large repair bill($3200 after tax), however the cheapest new engine offered was $6000 including tax. With the money I saved by repairing I'm getting all new sails for next year. Seriously how much will a new outboard cost? I wanted the new Yamaha F70(weighs the same as my old 50) but was looking at over $9000 installed with tax.

If you have all the mods and gear you want on your Mac and still have money to burn go ahead and get a new engine but apply this formula first then make a decision.

COST OF NEW OUTBOARD
MINUS
COST OF REPAIR
EQUALS......

(probably $4000 or more)

Take it a step further, if you expect to get 5 trouble free years with the repair it only costs $500 a year.

A new outboard will have to be completely trouble free for 12 years minimum to be a better deal (assuming $6000 for new OB).

Yeah, I'm cheap. But I also want alot of things for my Mac and spending all my boat bucks on a new OB would mean: No Sails, No Pedestal Guard, No ChartPlotter, No new sheets and halyards, No fridge, No shorepower........no mods at all for years and years.

Well,that's my 2 cents

Willy