Trailer upgrading issues

For MacGregor/Venture owners in Australia and discussions about country-specific sailing-related topics.
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Mac26Mpaul
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Re: Trailer upgrading issues

Post by Mac26Mpaul »

I have been down the marina this morning, and talking to QLD transport etc

Firstly, I'm having a decent galv drawbar and Aus compliant hitch fitted at the Marina. They are also going to put some side rails on the trailer for making loading easier. About $1100 for these jobs.

I asked him again about duel axels and single axels and he said NO! you deffinately need duel axels if you want to get this trailer capable of taking more than its current ATM. I asked him about if I could get the ATM changed since it is currently 1905kgs and the axel is rated to two tonne. He said that if I took this trailer in to the engineer and asked him that, "He'd probably throw it out the door".

He said, it is illegal to drive it as is. Its not a matter of if the trailer can handle it or whether you dont go far with it. If something happens when you drive the kilometer or whatever it is home right now, insurance will not pay a cent and you could be in a world of bother.

I rang QLD transport and spent quite some time on the phone there :wink: THe end result being they dont have a clue and gave me the number for a few of the engineers in my area certified for this work. I rang the closest one up and asked him if I could do it single axel with a heavier axel. He said No, i have to go duel axel if I want it certified for more than two tonne. I said well I have been in a discussion online with some guys who seem to know their stuff and they say that I can get it done single axel. He said Are they engineers!! He said, there is not even any bearings available in Australia rated to over two tonnes. He said "If you want that trailer rated to 2500kg (the figure I gave him) you need to have two axels fitted "and new breaks and a breakway system and dont insult me by putting standard electric breaks on a boat trailer please" He said you need to put electro hydraulic breaks on it and the unit alone is $1900.

I asked him for a rough quote to have duel axels fitted with these breaks and the trailer recertified and he said impossible without seeing the trailer but the last one they did was about 4k.

This sounds about right as the quote at the marina I got was about 5k but that included the new drawbar and hitch (which I am getting done next week for 1100). He said "why dont you just buy a new trailer rated at 2500kg. You could get one for about 7K and then you could sell your current one. I said because my trailer is boat specific and so would be hard to sell. So it will be cheaper to modify this one.

I asked him if there is anyway to have the trailers ATM changed to a bit higher since the axel is capable of 2 tonnes and 10 or 15 percent of the ATM is taken on the ball anyway. He said NO! The trailers ATM stays at what it is unless you modify that trailer and if you want to carry more than 2 tonnes you need duel axels and electro Hydraulic breaks!

and so there ya have it.......

ANyway, the figure I gave before of 1920kg was wrong. My ATM is 1905 and the Tare is 260kg. What I dont get is, how they got the figure under 1905 to register it because even without the add ons in my boat. The boat, trailer and motor alone weight more than 1905kgs (guess my boat has some extra frozen snot in it or something :? )
Boblee
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Re: Trailer upgrading issues

Post by Boblee »

Well there you have it, thats actually what I was told a few years ago but reading what was said on TSP thought my trailer man at the time must have been wrong is it any wonder we laymen are confused.
Might pay to put that info on TSP as they did show single axle trailers there that were rated in excess of 2 tonne but that could be NSW, am pretty sure one of the blokes there is in the business so :?:
Did you note the trailer parts on ebay I linked, they may not be what that engineer wants or would like to see but they must be legal and very cheap mind you some of the cheaper electric brakes are a bit suss, after a few replacements we went to HD 4x4 type and no more trouble on a camper but it really copped a flogging on every back road we could find right round oz.
What is this about, why do you need side rails?
They are also going to put some side rails on the trailer for making loading easier.
Crikey I'm glad I can and am able to do this basic work myself and/or have access to expertise if I can't living in a small country town has advantages and disadvantages.
Last edited by Boblee on Mon Nov 07, 2011 8:40 pm, edited 2 times in total.
cruiser
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Re: Trailer upgrading issues

Post by cruiser »

Hi Paul,
The plot deepens. With no disrespect to the trailer builder and engineer you have spoken to so far I am still not convinced. Some trailer builders I have spoken to tend, I find, to be very convinced of their own understanding of things. This may not of course be the case with the two guys you have spoken to. However, I find it hard to believe there are no industrial single axle trailers out there over 2 tonnes. I can't see how you would need a bearing to be rated 2 tonnes as each wheel has at least 2 bearings and there are 2 wheels - how would one apply this line of logic to a 40 tonne road truck let alone a mining dumper at 300 odd tonnes? :? (Perhaps there is a lot I don't know about 'bearing talk'.)

Perhaps it may be worth having a yarn with Active Fabrications as they would be constantly selling axles, springs, bearing, etc for a range of trailer specs. They talk about 6 tonne axles on their site. http://www.activefabrications.com.au/index.htm

There is also a trailer guy just 50m up the road from Yatala Pies (Matt at M & J Trailer 3/35 Old Pacific HIghway, Yatala) that I found very helpful and easy to talk to - he actually advised me not to do the work I felt needed doing. You could do both of these guys in one trip. By the way Active Fabrications is Logan River Road, Beenleigh - not Logan Road).
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Re: Trailer upgrading issues

Post by Boblee »

Well it's getting interesting now just googled and got this one,
so they are made and bearings must be available, notice this one looks like it has 16" tyres which you would need to have a bit of leeway.
If 2500 or 1250 KG stubs and bearings are available in my case could just fit them to the existing axle which is plenty strong enough I believe.
Actually that trailer could be converted pretty easy, pity its gone as I need one for another job.
Heres another wouldn't like to buy the trailer but the axle and wheels are there.
http://www.baesystems.com/BAEProd/group ... _m1082.pdf
I am leaning towards Cruisers comments, here is the comment by Inma on tsp which incidently came up on google.
I am about to go on holidays and won't be able to help till late November.

Converting a Macgregor trailer to 2350kg ATM is reasonably easy dependent on tow vehicle hitch capacity.

Basically 2000kg on the axle and 350kg on the drawbar. Its not something the average trailer repairer would have the skill to understand let alone engineer safely. Brakes could be overide, electric or other systems.

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Re: Trailer upgrading issues

Post by cruiser »

Boblee wrote:Heres another wouldn't like to buy the trailer but the axle and wheels are there.
http://www.baesystems.com/BAEProd/group ... _m1082.pdf
I like the "US Army 22-year corrosion protection certification" Bob. :!: :!: :D
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Re: Trailer upgrading issues

Post by cruiser »

Hi Paul,
I remember seeing your trailer up at the motor service place at Yatala once and thinking what a nice trailer it was. However, I realise from some of your past postings that you have reservations about a few things - not the least of which is this weight issue. Perhaps you might be best to get together all the information and opinions you can over the next 3 weeks and wait until INMA comes back from holidays towards the end of this month to see if he can shine some light on it - he not only has the depth of knowledge on trailers but also on a large range of boats and specifically on trailer sailers.

Trailer guys that do regular boats, and by defaut mostly power boats, often don't have a clear understanding of boats like ours that need to be supported on bunks. I have had trailer guys most adamant that I should put centre rollers on my trailer - in other words no idea. :!: :!: Some will adamantly say you need box section frames whilst other are just as adamant about "C" channel frames. I am pretty sold on "C" channel, as at least you can see rust and corrosion that way. I remember originally looking at a boat that had a 'really good trailer' only to find I could poke my finger throught the underside of the box section frame down the back.

Without wanting to complicate issues one of the things I have had trouble getting clear is the amount of allowable overhang out the back of the trailer. In actual fact anything back past the last bunk is a total waste of materials but the bureaucrats that make up these laws probably have no understanding of the logic even behind that comment. :(
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Re: Trailer upgrading issues

Post by cruiser »

An example of an ex BCC single axle 2,500kg tralier for sale:
http://www.trucksales.com.au/buy/detail ... 38446FF2CA

Plus another at 5.4 tonne ATM
http://www.trucksales.com.au/buy/detail ... 38446FF2CA
Boblee
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Re: Trailer upgrading issues

Post by Boblee »

Heres a link to the Alco site, they have suspensions made up or components had a quick look but this is the bearing ratings, they have some 3 tonne plus axles there.
I really think the mac bearings are 2 ton plus and the axle is definitely on the steel trailer anyway as 2 ton is 50mm square .
I could use the alko stubs to match up with the alko 9 leaf springs on it.
I see no problem with the trailer frame as it incorporates the boat as part of its strength (steel).
http://www.alko.com.au/vehicle-technolo ... iler-hubs/
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Mac26Mpaul
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Re: Trailer upgrading issues

Post by Mac26Mpaul »

Guys, thanks for all your comments (and links!) and yes, I do agree, something don't seem right with what I am being told. Nobody seems to know (certainly not QLD transport LOL) the answer to this, but agree Cruiser that INMA and the trailer brainiacs over at TSP are my best bet for some decent info. The problem of course is that the trailer places and QLD transport registered engineers dont know this stuff and so even if INMA says I could get the single axel trailer rated for say 2200kg - I dont think I will find an engineer to do it... ...

I'm not in a rush. My main concern is the drawbar which is bent pretty badly and that will be fixed next week with a stronger galvanised 100 weight one. We are currently saving for the tow hack (we don't do finance) and figure we will be able to buy the 4x4 in 2 years from now. We are launching at the local ramp until then, so I'm not that worried. I will just sit on it and see where I'm at then I think. Perhaps cicumstances may dictate a change of boat before then (although unlikely as we see this as the perfect boat for us for about 10 more years and then Id say a keelboat will be on the cards)

As to why I need side rails, I'm talking about these http://www.macgregorsailors.com/modt/in ... ?view=1361
I believe they will make a huge difference to our boating life!! There are a few little things about the Mac that annoy me, like any boat, but probably biggest pain in the butt that causes the most issues for me and the missus is how bloody hard it is to get this boat on the trailer in a strong current or cross wind, both common at the Cabbage tree point ramp! The boat is so simple to load in no wind or current, just drive it on, but it just aint like the video when there is a current or cross wind! I think those side rails will make a huge difference, especially if I am doing it alone...
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Re: Trailer upgrading issues

Post by cruiser »

cruiser wrote:..........Without wanting to complicate issues one of the things I have had trouble getting clear is the amount of allowable overhang out the back of the trailer. In actual fact anything back past the last bunk is a total waste of materials but the bureaucrats that make up these laws probably have no understanding of the logic even behind that comment. :(
Well, pays to read things fully and I take back all I infered about the bureacrats. I finally read the full content of the 2 TSP threads involving some of this stuff. I was aware last year that state and federal governments where looking into reviewing some issue to do with trailerable yachts but didn't realise that had been completed. INMA had posted the new Qld regs (June 2011) on TSP and I noticed that some logic has prevailed - my overhang is well within the new limites and it all makes sense - relief. :D
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Re: Trailer upgrading issues

Post by cruiser »

Mac26Mpaul wrote:.............As to why I need side rails, I'm talking about these http://www.macgregorsailors.com/modt/in ... ?view=1361
I believe they will make a huge difference to our boating life!!....
Good idea Paul and that little roller under the bow is good also - I am going to put one on mine - DO NOT like the 'Mac Bump' idea.

Have you seen this set of guide rails on the 26S in Utah?
http://purplesagetradingpost.com/sumner ... index.html
Sumner, who owns the boat, has done some great mods and has had some pretty good trips.

A lot of good info for 26S & D owners is exchanged on the Mac Owners forum here
http://forums.macgregor.sailboatowners. ... y.php?f=68
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Re: Trailer upgrading issues

Post by Boblee »

We installed a roller a few years ago but it still doesn't negate the need for the bump fully in all situations especially after a prolonged stint in saltwater as the winch is only an assist and have an extra guide post on either side towards the front and yeah it is still difficult in extreme conditions but looking at those rails they may need to be higher so you can see them and don't ride over them on the steep ramps in high tide areas, be interesting to see how they go.
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Mac26Mpaul
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Re: Trailer upgrading issues

Post by Mac26Mpaul »

Didnt read the QLD transport stuff he linked to, but guess I probably should as I can see what the guy at the marina told me about overhang, is probably not right..

Yep, saw Summers rails and some of his other mods, very nice.
I thought about doing the rails higher, however I have a narrow gate to get through to get the boat in the backyard and I have to remove the rear guide posts to do it as it is. Higher rails will make it too tight, or not possible without removing them each time which will be a huge pain... I doubt that the lower ones will cause any problems on 9 out of 10 ramps. The front part of them will be pretty high and the boat of course goes down maybe 12 inches below the waterline. If worse comes to worse, I will just add a coupla of posts just forward of the rails. Will let you all know how they work anyway.

Also, when we are man handling the boat onto the trailer rather than driving it on, I often only put the trailer in about half way. (makes getting the bow around the rear guide post a lot easier than when the end of the trailer is in deep water). Then I get the missus to hold it while I slowly back in the rest of the way. If I come accross a ramp so steep that I cant see the rails. I will just use this method.
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Re: Trailer upgrading issues

Post by Crikey »

So do I get this right in any way :?:

If I shipped to Aus for any permanent residency type period (as in importing a left hand drive car) I would have to upgrade to meet the particular state specs :?: Or if I was to import for a limited period of visitation I would be exempt from compliance obligations, and only subject to country of residence extended coverage?

Confused :?
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Re: Trailer upgrading issues

Post by cruiser »

Boblee wrote:We installed a roller a few years ago but it still doesn't negate the need for the bump fully in all situations especially after a prolonged stint in saltwater as the winch is only an assist.............
Bob, this mod of a sliding "V-block" for the bow may help a lot - once again on a 26S, but the same principle applies.
http://purplesagetradingpost.com/sumner ... ds-17.html
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