Shore power wiring Question

[rjhpilot91]

I have done some searches but haven't seen an exact answer to this question. The previous boat owner had a shore power receptacle added and ran marine grade 10 Gauge wire directly to a GFCI outlet. I know this is not the preferred ABYC installation method, but the P.O. said he used it all the time without any problems.

I'm going on a 4 day cruise in May and would like to use my shore power setup to charge the batteries overnight and run some accessories, but would like to know some of your opinions on whether it would be safe without adding a Main AC power 2 pole breaker first.

Rob

[dennisneal]

I had installed a shore power setup that seemed to be the same as the one on your boat. However, upon the advice of another member of this board who is much more knowlegeable about all of this than I, I modified it by also installing a single pole, marine-grade, circuit breaker to the "hot" side of the circuit before the GFCI outlet. His explanation was that the GFCI outlet may not cut off the power if there is a short between the "hot" and the "neutral" wires only. The GFCI works when there is a short to "ground" from either the "hot" or the "neutral" circuits.

I don't think it is highly likely that a short will occur only between the "hot" and the "neutral" circuits, but adding an additional circuit breaker is pretty cheap and easy to do.

[pokerrick1]

but adding an additional circuit breaker is pretty cheap and easy to do.

That's easy for you to say - - - I couldn't do it if my life depended upon it

Rick

[Russ]

You can probably get away with that for your short cruise.

However, I would permanently install a proper GFI breaker.

In the meantime, maybe this might add a bit of safety.
http://www.amazon.com/Tower-Manufacturi ... B0007NOZLA



--Russ

[rjhpilot91]

Can you guys suggest a good breaker setup for the least cash?

I had my eye on this one but I've already spent a ton of cash this winter on upgrades but this may happen next winter. Heres the one I had been looking at
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Blue-Sea ... iesQ5fGear

Are there any cheaper suitable options for a permanent installation?

[Catigale]

I'm a safety nazi when it comes to boat electrics, but for just charging the batteries it would be safer to just use an adapter, an extension cord, and a standard battery charger for your short trip

However....

..if there are any kids on board your trip, then do it right or not at all....weather plug, double pole cutoff as close to the weather cap as possible, GFCI.

Honestly, we cruise for a week without battery charging of any kind...have you done a calculation on your loads?

[Divecoz]

No it doesnt.. it measures difference in potenial ...

I had installed a shore power setup that seemed to be the same as the one on your boat. However, upon the advice of another member of this board who is much more knowlegeable about all of this than I, I modified it by also installing a single pole, marine-grade, circuit breaker to the "hot" side of the circuit before the GFCI outlet. His explanation was that the GFCI outlet may not cut off the power if there is a short between the "hot" and the "neutral" wires only. The GFCI works when there is a short to "ground" from either the "hot" or the "neutral" circuits.

I don't think it is highly likely that a short will occur only between the "hot" and the "neutral" circuits, but adding an additional circuit breaker is pretty cheap and easy to do.

[Newell]

Going back to the original question. Are you expecting to connect to shore power that is unprotected, no breaker? Or as sailors we assume nothing on shore works and need to add redundancy in all cases? I'm trying to understand why the additional breaker is necessary? Say, I have a GFCI 1' away from shore power entry, am I still in the safety ballpark or is it back to the schematic?

[Divecoz]

Go figure huh???? as I stated in another post.. some can and some will... for-tell calamity in any and every situation..I'm am a little surprised this time..Its not a bad Idea though...its in fact being redundant...( often a good thing....) Do you wear suspenders with your belt? For me ....A Union IBEW Electrician for 40 years with a Master Licence in 7 states..... Hey it can't hurt and it could .....help??
How about adding Whole house surge protection and for a few hundred dollars a Clean power/Isolation transformer? and LED lights verifying Polarity ( theres an issue with real need for concern!!!!) Polarity....IMHO and from my personal experience , much of the Safety Factor will depend on where.....your located...Sad to say but some areas seem to have either? No Clue and No Concern ..For $10 you can pick up a Plug in Polarity / GFCI tester and its idiot proof..

Going back to the original question. Are you expecting to connect to shore power that is unprotected, no breaker? Or as sailors we assume nothing on shore works and need to add redundancy in all cases? I'm trying to understand why the additional breaker is necessary? Say, I have a GFCI 1' away from shore power entry, am I still in the safety ballpark or is it back to the schematic?

[rjhpilot91]

The question arises since I'll be staying at 3 different marinas in 4 days and would like to use some shore power to use a laptop, charge batteries and such. You never know what their setup looks like till you get there. I definitely want to be on the safe side and do the smart thing such as adding an inline breaker.

[Divecoz]

Pilot: Allow me if you will to play Devils Advocate.. all the while remembering I am not searching the Internet but relying on a lot of training trouble shooting and there by hands on experience.......
#1. What do you hope to accomplish with this In Line Breaker?
Might I remind you that the very worst place Inside your home to have your breaker panel is in the ..... Basement! Humidity and there by corrosion are your breakers biggest enemies..
#2. What size in-line will you be installing? 15 amp? 20 amp? Heaven forbid a 30 amp!! Though its true most every marine hoook up will offer no less than 30 amps..
What quality and size of wire and outlet /receptacles did you install? Typical #14 wire or did you go to 20 amp #12 or 30 amp #10? your outlets ? Are they the cheap 89 cents to $2... 15 amp variety? Did you stab them in for the connection?
Is the first outlet after the breaker or at least ahead of any consumption device a GFCI and is it properly wired?
All that In Line breaker is doing BTW is limiting current flow.. amp draw of the entire system...
#3. Nothing on your boat should be drawing more than a few amps . I suspect the coffee pot will be the biggest draw and its protected of a sort by a short cord of #14 - 15 amp wire..
In Line breakers on boats and campers and Motor homes...a great idea as long as you understand what it is they will actually accomplish.
My SUGGESTION ..Install your 30 amp in line or a 20 amp..Then split it to two separate in line breakers of lesser size , say 10 or 15 amps and have them operate 1 or 2 .. maybe..........3 devices each.. again the first outlet coming off each new in line should be a GFCI..
Your boat for obvious reason is not wired using EMT its Marine Romex at best.. There has NEVER been a house fire with the use of EMT and metal boxes no matter what happens inside that pipe or box....it goes to ground and everything comes to a halt.. NOT SO with romex or smurf tube..
Last but NOT least buy that GFCI / Polarity tester .. its $10..

The question arises since I'll be staying at 3 different marinas in 4 days and would like to use some shore power to use a laptop, charge batteries and such. You never know what their setup looks like till you get there. I definitely want to be on the safe side and do the smart thing such as adding an inline breaker.

[Boblee]

Well Divecoz you certainly had me thinking there and I have been a sparky for 48 years, partly due to the different terms you have used but for the layman that would be even worse and partly because of my ignorance of your systems and regs.
Here a minimum I would just suggest is a main switch (30amp?) with one or two cb's to suit the wiring used but 15amp should be big enough if you are intending to use a heater (oops maybe bigger over there as you only use 110v so maybe more amps).
Instead of a single pole main switch I would use at least a double pole in case of reversed supply polarity but preferably an earth leakage cb followed by two single or double pole cb's for two separate circuits which is what I used in our boat but also added a changeover switch so that we could select inverter or mains power.
Caravans here are required to use all double pole switch's etc for our 240v light and power but I believe the ELCB pretty well negates the need provided it's wired correctly downstream.
An alterative and possibly better would be a double pole main switch with two separate earth leakage C/breakers rated at the circuit protection needed this would give isolation of a reversed supply and protection from either supply line to earth as well as overload protection, if someone was really worried about reversed supply they could also use double pole outlets but that is not really helping when the outlet is switched on.
Not sure if our solutions suit your applications or supplies though?.

[Divecoz]

Boblee: 48 years in the trade? You got to be old as dirt hahahaha You have me, by almost a decade : )
Yes Things are very different here.. Our 110 -V- Your 220..
My 2 Biggest concern really , are Polarity... and Ground Fault...
As you know and I as well ( thats the industry where I received all my schooling and training too)
Our Industry has changed as much or almost so, as Computers have.. But we still know not, to expect to protect #14 wire with a 30 amp breaker..
As we know as well , if the system has been installed properly with a ground etc... That GFCI is the one with all the responsibility.. We could add Spark Arrest and AFCI and , as I have alluded too in the past, maybe another dozen Costly $$$ gadgets..GFCI Outlet? $10.. Single Pole GFCI 20 amp breaker $60 Duo Pole 20 about $110...and you still need an enclosure..and none..... of that is Marine Quality..
Blue Sea here is the most competitive and a small panel with 4 breakers will run you about.. $150 and thats with No GFCI... In the long run, any sort or leak or transfer between.. Hot to Grnd or Neut to Grnd or Hot to Neut. and that GFCI is dropping out.. GFI / GFCI as you know have come a long.... long..... ways, since they were introduced to common usage in the industry, around 1968..

[Boblee]

I presume your GFCI is what we call an earth leakage system but we normally use that at the swbd rather than at the outlet and with 240v IMHO the closer to the edge of the boat the better as while the active is on the left on manufactured outlets it isn't or wasn't a regulation when soft wired or on a lead so it's not hard to get a reversal.
Photo is of where I installed our 240v swbd and it has a c/o switch from inverter to mains power with two circuits one each side of the boat but only one 20amp elcb at that stage.

[DaveB]

I have a ac outlet that hooks to a ac connection in front of gally that powers a 10 amp built in system to power two house batteries and starter batery seperate. than I have this underway to keep both systems charged and independent.
http://www.yandina.com/c100InfoR3.htm
I don't run anything in the boat under AC unless I use a AC-DC inverter and use the AC dock power for recharge of batteries thru the 10 Amp charger. If I run AC at dock it is seperate from boat's DC system and is feed from dock direct.
Simple and no problems.
Dave

I have done some searches but haven't seen an exact answer to this question. The previous boat owner had a shore power receptacle added and ran marine grade 10 Gauge wire directly to a GFCI outlet. I know this is not the preferred ABYC installation method, but the P.O. said he used it all the time without any problems.

I'm going on a 4 day cruise in May and would like to use my shore power setup to charge the batteries overnight and run some accessories, but would like to know some of your opinions on whether it would be safe without adding a Main AC power 2 pole breaker first.

Rob