Double Staysail Rig

[mastreb]

I'm looking for feedback on an idea I've had for a new type of rig I've never seen. I'm calling it a double staysail rig for the time being.

1) Two very large roller-furling Genoas, port and starboard
2) No mainsail

The purpose is to avoid the mainsail rigging and boom attachment on the MacGregors, which is what takes all the time when rigging and de-rigging.

The mainsail and single jib are replaced by two identical, side-by-side roller-furling genoas rigged for Port and Starboard (i.e., they counter-rotate compared to each other). These Genoas would be larger than the standard Genoa by about double in terms of total sail area.

My calculations show that a 350 sq.ft. genoa would be possible to rig to a 26' Mac if you had port and starboard aft pulleys bringing the jib sheets to stern and then forward to the jib wenches. Because of the higher load on the sail, it's likely that wench cranks would be necessary to fully taut the sails in moderate to heavy winds.

To tack, you simply unfurl the genoa that you will be taking to leeward. The unfurled genoa will automatically furl (reef) as the other comes out, and because the sheets go straight fore to aft along the sideboards, there's nothing coming around the mast at all (as is the case with a typical genoa).

The roller furling lines would be run alongside the opposite sail's jib sheets so that you can grab both and pull at the same time, dropping the furler line when the windward jib is furled as you continue to pull out the leeward jib.

The mast simply holds up the forestay roller furlers and is not rigged to a sail at all, so the genoas are a single wing (similar to a lateen). A boat built this way would not need a rotating mast.

When sailing down-wind, you’d go wing-on-wing with both Genoas out, effectively creating a giant spinnaker. Heading into the wind probably wouldn’t be any worse than a Mac does presently.

Considering that you could get 350 feet of sail area (vice 280 with the genoa + mainsail), that reefing is a simple as furling a genoa, that all sails are now on roller furlers, and that raising the mast and both Genoas would be trivial, this might be compelling enough to actually try.

Disadvantages are:
More load on a single sail
Increased forward weight--may require a backstay.
Requirement to simultaneously furl and unfurl could be complicated.

Advantages are:

Much faster rigging
Simpler storage (no boom or mainsail to stow)
Greater sail area (or matching sail area would be easy)
Single wing=more efficient
Simpler reefing
All sails are roller furling

Thoughts? I’m mostly interested in thoughtful criticism, because I’m trying to convince myself not to buy two larger genoas to try this out.

[kyle s 353]

Although kinda similar rigs have been used on different boats for racing, the added stress on the forestay and inability to reef when the wind picks up would be enough to not try it. a roller reefing setup moves the center of effort foward, which would lead to super massive weather helm. rigging a jib in place of the mainsail could be done tho i guess, with the addition of new winches, fairleads, and possibly boomkins to allow a decent sheeting angle. leaving the boom rigged (with the sail still bent on) and adding slides to the luff will greatly speed up rigging the boat. good luck!

[seahouse]

Hmmmm - I like it. I’m going to have to read this over a few times more carefully, think about it, and check back later, (I’m on my way to bed now)!

For now, I will say that a single wing is less efficient than 2 sails. A jib + main give you more power together than the two would individually, by a significant amount. No “slot effect”.

Your centre of pressure will be lower, so less heel, but there is more wind the higher up you go, but the larger sail area might help offset some of that.

Hey Kyle- you mean it will give you massive lee helm, right?

- Brian.

[kyle s 353]

yes! sorry, right after work, and was super tired. my concern is when attempting to reef, the center of effort will move towards the bow. this helm would make it almost impossible to head to wind at all, and would be dangerous in gusts because of massive lee helm. on an broad reach or full run this setup would be fine, but on any other point of sail it would be disasterous. i guess my concern is that without a balanced sailplan, steering would be horrible, and steering is worth the extra 5 to 10 min (all it takes to rig the mainsail anyways).

[robbarnes1965]

Pointing and tacking can be really tough in light winds with just a genoa. I have a cdi mainsail furler which works nicely and makes single handing a breeze. I tried to get and inboom furler from Mike Imon with no luck at the time but he may be properly set up by now. Rigging and de-rigging for trailering would be easier on a boom rather than the mast as I have.

Rob

[mastreb]

Kyle--excellent point about the lee helm when reefing. I hadn't thought that through. It could be possible to put lazy jacks on the Genoas to bring the sail lower rather than forward, but for the effort and rigging there I might as well go back to a mainsail.

I'm not worried about gusting as a safety issue--roller reefing is quite fast. It's the lee helm effect that is problematic.

Matt

[seahouse]

Ok - not sure how far you want to go with this, but you would need to move the mast aft, and/or repositon the daggerboard forward. We are just speaking hypothetically, right? Mast rake or bend won't be enough.
-B.

[kyle s 353]

Rather than moving the mast, i would almost be more tempted to re-rig the mast stays and or tabernacle to make a junk rig. Would be alot cheaper due to the lack of winches, and getting the boat ready to sail would be a snap. Just raise the mast (which would be much lighter without any stays on it), pull the mainsail out, clip it onto the mast, snap on the halyard and topping lift, reeve the sheet, and your off. Would def fit into my laziness mode of both rigging and sail handling lol. Always wanted to mess around with one of them myself, just haven't found the time yet. The idea that it could be done on the cheap always is a wonderful feature too, cause I'm a huge fan of having fun and not spending an arm and a leg to do it.

I dunno, maybe if you had a few different sizes of headsails and moved each one further aft so that the C.E. was still centered it would probably work out. Say like run the super huge one when normal sailing, then if the wind pipes up a bit, then roll it up and hoist a smaller one that is a few feet further aft. Then after that a small jib and a boomless sail like a bigger storm sail (for maybe a 33 ft boat or something) could be used on the mast for the mainsail. That would break up the sailplan so there would be less strain on deck fittings when the wind pipes up, and would be easier to control when you need it most. Having a track up front for the foot of the jib would be super handy to adjust the C.E., and your smaller sails could get by without rigging an stay if you rig them like the old school staysails were (with a rope built in right on the luff). Hoisting the halyard would pull the rope tight, and would probably be more than adequate sail shape to point just fine.

I would also be super tempted to add a cruising spinnaker with a dousing sock to this project.

[vizwhiz]

what about rigging one of the gennys to the original forestay (like normal) and one to another "forestay cable" from the mast mount up to a spreader sticking straight back from the top of the mast (use something like a spreader-type bar as an extension of where your backstay attaches so you get the aft angle). Then you'd have two "forestays", but one would be behind the mast (for the sake of the C.E.).

You could still use two genny-sized sails, loose-footed that way (no boom). You could run one out one side and one out the other on a run, like (wing-and-wing) as was suggested, and run both on the same side of the boat like you would normally for higher points of sail...kinda like this:


(if it works, you'd have to name the rig after my wife or something...)

[Highlander]

I think your gonna have one slow boat to China !!

J

[vizwhiz]

The purpose is to avoid the mainsail rigging and boom attachment on the MacGregors, which is what takes all the time when rigging and de-rigging.

Mastreb, I don't have an M, I have an S...and I have not done this on the water yet, only on the trailer in my backyard - but I've practiced it a bunch of times already on the trailer...and it just doesn't seem that hard to mount the boom, clip on the topping lift (which stays on the mast), clip on the halyard (which stays on the mast), take out the slug gate, and raise the mainsail...then I route the halyard through two blocks to the cockpit, and clip on the mainsheet by the blocks...but that's about it... Oh, I attach the boom vang and run that line through the other blocks to the cockpit... Doesn't seem to take that long...is there something more significant about mounting the boom on an M than there is on an S that I just don't know about yet? (ignorance admitted!)

[mastreb]

There's nothing difficult about attaching the boom to the mast on the . I trailer from a boat storage lot, and when you add up the round-trip to the lot, rigging, ramp launch I always seem to be two hours from my front door to being at sail, and two hours back. Four hours makes for a long day. I'm just trying to get that time down as much as possible without paying for a slip.

I've got full rigging down to about 15 minutes. I retain everything with made-to-length bungees for trailering rather than using the sheets and lines because the lines are really long and knots take time. I toss all the lines and sheets down the companionway and close it. That took the most prep time off. I also leave the mainsail, vang, kicker, and mainsheet attached to the boom and put the mainsail cover on upside down (grommets up). This allows me to just toss all the pulleys into the mainsail cover on deck, lift it over the sail, fasten it off, and everything is contained in the bag. I have a quick pin on the boom to remove it from the mast, and the whole boom assembly goes below on the deck for safe trailering.

I leave the mast wench connected all the time--I just drop it to the deck when under sail and lift it on its wench when trailering. The genoa doesn't seem to ever get caught up in it.

So no, it's not complicated--I'm just looking to save those 15 minutes more

[mastreb]

what about rigging one of the gennys to the original forestay (like normal) and one to another "forestay cable" from the mast mount up to a spreader sticking straight back from the top of the mast (use something like a spreader-type bar as an extension of where your backstay attaches so you get the aft angle). Then you'd have two "forestays", but one would be behind the mast (for the sake of the C.E.).

It's interesting. Certainly would not be as efficient as a boom spar main, and it would require the addition of a second set of pulleys and winches for the after staysail sheets, but it would be easy to furl and rig.

the spreader and roller furler for the after staysail are a concern though--the whole point of this is easier/faster rigging than a boom, so I'll have to think about how the aft position and the extra spreader would complicate raising and lowering the mast.

Now, two aft spreaders and stays exist already. I could just run a stock jib up both sides to act as staysails without adding anything to the rigging. This would only take a halyard block at the top of each spreader and a pair of extra cleats on the cabin to tie off to. But then that's also not easier to rig than the mainsail.

Perhaps just a storm sail on the mast is the best way to go if I'm serious about getting rid of the boom.

[vizwhiz]

Thanks for the explanation - I like the idea of turning the sail cover upside down and storing everything in it. Makes sense.

The idea of the spreader at the top of the mast was just some brain-storming (perhaps just a squall?). I thought about it later, and thought it would make more sense to use two backstays, V-configuration, because they would have to double as shrouds for the aft jib. As for mast-raising, I don't see it as any more difficult - you'd attach the front jib on however you do it now, and attach the second jib to the end of the "spreader-miniboom-thingy", and raise the mast. The backstays would tension that part, the front jib furler would tension as normal, and you would have to clip on the furler part of both jibs as you do the front one now... It was just thinking - not sure it's very practical.

Perhaps just a storm sail on the mast is the best way to go if I'm serious about getting rid of the boom.

True - and if you're running with a "loose-footed" mainsail, you're almost there now - just need something to tension the foot of the sail (outhaul) and be able to control it side-to-side (in place of the mainsheet). I suppose you could set up an inverted-V configuration for a combination mainsheet/outhaul, both sides leading "down" somewhere so you can pull the mainsheet back (outhaul), pull it down (vang), and control the lateral (mainsheet). You're practically talking about controlling the mainsheet like a jib - two individual sheets coming from the end of the foot.

[technicalman]

would be interesting to see. seems like it would be imbalanced. wish i had the bucks to spend on the experiment.