newbie question: docking without rudders

[Ixneigh]

That picture is exactly what I want to do with my M.

I already motor with just the outboard on my v 22 and frequently just drive her in reverse, keeping an eye on the depth. It handles pretty well.
The powersailors would be great candidates for a built in bow thuster.

[yukonbob]

if my step dad can park his 56 foot twin screw with no thrusters i think we should be able to manage a 26.

[mastreb]

Twin screws are vastly easier to dock than a single prop. First of all the counter-rotation eliminates "walk" which is a constant issue when reversing in a Mac. Secondly, you can drive the screws opposite one another to literally point the boat exactly where you want without moving the rudders, and you can trim the RPM separately to counteract the effects of current almost completely. Length actually doesn't have a whole lot to do with it. Soviet captains were famous for bringing 450 foot cruisers dockside with no tugs using these methods.

I use the public docks at Shelter Island quite frequently, which are subject to very strong tidal currents that are perpendicular to the slips, so getting in and out is dicey. I'm considering adapting a 100 ft. lb. electric motor as a removable bow thruster that would clamp onto the bow pulpit and the tow bull-nose.

[NiceAft]

Beaching your boat, such as in Boblee's photo is easy. One could do it with your eyes closed, well, at least one eye closed , but docking is a horse of a different color Limited space to manuver, other boats around, wind blowing abeam, four inches of clearance from the bottom, no rudders down, no daggerboard, probably no ballast in that depth of water, that is a challenge. Most especially if the wind is blowing away from the dock. Beaching....................no sweat. Docking though in those conditions can be hairy. Six seasons with Nice Aft has educated me as to what it can do easily, and what it can't. I don't think Gianpaolo was posting about beaching. If he was.............then never mind I just don't think so. Maybe he can clarify

Ray

[Boblee]

Ray
Not sure why you have a problem with docking a Mac with low wind and or little current but if you add the shallow water which would/could mean lower speed it is a bit more difficult and worse again if you have weeds etc but if as I said the bottom is soft you should be ok even if you have to push it in with a boat hook or jump off.
Probably the best thing a newby can do is practice with boards up and coming in with a cross wind and or side current and then do it every otherway so that they have an idea how the Mac handles which is really not well at low speed but as I said with a bit of thought it's not hard.
I only mentioned beaching to show that even if beached on soft sand/mud it's not the end of the world and unless on a dropping tide and going too fast you can always push back.
Just a comment on beaching and it being easy, be very careful of submerged rocks etc even on nice sandy beaches and it pays to reverse in dropping the anchor on the way in then jump off and put a stern anchor up the beach, when the tide goes right out then set the front anchor properly especially if staying overnight through the next incoming tide.
Why reverse the Mac is low at the stern and breakers will swamp it on the incoming tide as well as throw it around especially with a wind assist.
Oh also check for level bottom it can be pretty uncomfortable sleeping otherwise.

[yukonbob]

You docked a 450 ft soviet boat in wind/current in alaska? Didn't think so. Lot easier said than done. Simple thing is if some red captain can do it with twice the boat why can't we with half the boat?

[NiceAft]

Not sure why you have a problem with docking a Mac with low wind and or little current

Never used the word "low" or "current", or even implied that I have any problem.

The original posting was about very shallow water docking, and at low speeds (such as docking) with all boards up (at the depth stated, no daggerboard can be used, and no rudder could be down), a Mac is difficult to keep on course. I implied in my post that IF wind is a factor, the difficulty factor is increased. I still maintain what I posted.

If my posts gave the impression that I have difficulty in docking or beaching, trust me on this, I don't Not after thirty-one years of owning a variety of sailboats.

Here is the original post. You will see that Gianpaolo asked "could the boat steer at idle speed with the rudders and centerboard up?" The answer is yes, but at idle speed, with the rudders and centerboard up, a Mac does not handle well, period Not that it could not be done, but that it does not handle well, and that is what I maintain. Beaching, coming in at higher than idle speed, and anything else is not addressing the post.

Hi all
my second hand Mac 26m is still on the trailer due to lack of docking place at my harbor, now it seems there might be a chance, but the place has very shallow water, I expect around 40 cm (around 16 inches for the American friends) or less with the low tide but being the bottom just mud, I could maybe shovel in order to gain a little bit more depth (they call it the strength of desperation when you own a Mac you can't use). The question for the experienced 27 owners is, could the boat steer at idle speed with the rudders and centerboard up? I mean just steering the engine? The good point is that in that place there are no streams and it is mostly well unexposed to waves and winds who could leeway a flat hull while maneuvering.

Thanks in advance
Gianpaolo

To wonder "Not sure why you have a problem with docking a Mac with low wind and or little current " is skipping over the shallow water part, and not having any boards in the water. Having the daggerboard in an , or the centerboard in an in the down position is esential too control in these boats. Not being down makes for difficult steering at "idle" speeds. Again, idle speeds, and that is what Gianpaolo was asking.

It would be nice to have him post again, and clear up whether he is docking, or launching right from the ramp.


Thank goodness there are imoticons. Without them, sensing the writers emotion could be difficult

Ray

[Fxwg80hd]

I have to agree with Ray on this. Powering a Mac slowly (and I'm talking about real slow) with the rudders and dagger board up, wind blowing, in a tight area can equal one nerve racking ride. If you're going at docking speed, in shallow water with soft bottom, then having 12" of dagger board exposed and a rudder down loosely will give you all the control you need. (if you are in a shallow rocky bottom, my question would be why?) If the dagger board does hit bottom, no big deal since you should be going slow enough not to cause any damage. You can dock with the rudders and dagger board up, but why give yourself the extra stress if you don't have too?

[quintamala]

Well...
I had my last year at a river mouth; Tides and water currents there, made me hard to determine the right time to get back /or to go out for sailing.
The overall changes in depth are from 60 cm. to 2.5 meters. Adding to these.. the water current.
I finally came aup with my particular solution:

Two anchors: Fore and aft droped before docking and ahead wind or water predominat direction. Then.. release (or pull) control lines in sequence... It´s very hard to explain but i made up my rules.

It was a nightmare sometimes...

The best advice: Try to find other place (As I did..).

Good luck and nice winds.

[Catigale]

A British captain docked the Queen Mary on the Hudson in 1956....sans tug boats due to a dock strike.

That was pretty impressive in my book.

Having sailed and docked a fair number of boats in the 17-50 foot range, I will state that the Mac is the most difficult boat to dock of all that I have sailed for the reasons outlined above. WIth all fins up, with wind and tide, its quite tough. Even now I am prepared to dust off the approach and start over if I dont like how things are progressing.

The Olympic circle Yacht club instructor in Berkeley even let me stick their J105 into dock after she watched me slow speed handle in the marina - it was pretty tight but I stuck the landing first time and stopped the bow 1 yard from the dock in the slip....voila..!!!

[Boblee]

Now don't get in a huff Ray I wasn't questioning your handling of the boat which is more than likely way better than mine, I apologise if you took it that way.
I originally added in "unless it's blowing a gale" as an afterthought for anybody reading besides Gianpaulo in shallow water who said he was in a protected anchorage anyway, of course it can be difficult to bring a mac into a dock under certain cicumstances especially with a wind blowing but it's not too difficult if you use a bit of thought and practice and of course be prepared to reverse up quick and go round again irrespective of who's watching.
Docking in a wind is far easier IMO than trying to run it onto the trailer in any sort of crosswind and or currents especially on an open ramp with dangerous obstructions each side if you miss in this case it's almost a must that you come in with some speed especially if shallow.
I rarely use rudders in rivers and very few ramps allow the use of more than a minimum of DB especially when coming onto the trailer and never dock at speed, sure it may take a few attempts because I am not a good sailor but usually it is easy once a method is worked out for the particular situation which like anchoring is different every time.

[zephyr101]

i have never used rudders or center board when under power in southwest florida. it.s too shallow i don't use them untill i am sailing. i new on a macx but not new to sailing i have a 35ft finn sailor up north in conn with full shoal draft keel and bought the mac for florida and shallow water so far i'm not disapointed. i have to dock single handed in a creek with mangroove swamps. i saw a kayack drag bottem 50' from where i dock.i can't get out at dead low tide in the winter,yea its shallow less then two ft between hi and low tide.some times 4"difference

[mastreb]

You docked a 450 ft soviet boat in wind/current in alaska? Didn't think so. Lot easier said than done. Simple thing is if some red captain can do it with twice the boat why can't we with half the boat?

Heh. Look up "Archangelesk"--it's the home of the Soviet northern fleet and it's basically at the same latitude as Barrow, AL in the Arctic ocean. So yeah, they did it with wind and current routinely.

All I'm saying is twin screws is the secret to precise control over a boat. You can rotate in place.

[mastreb]

Here are the things I've learned so far about getting on and off the trailer and dock when there's current or wind to deal with:

1. The mac is simply not great handling at low speeds compared to the full keel sailboats that I'm used to. They wander all over the surface of the water when the daggerboards and rudders are up. Try exposing 1 foot or so (1/4) of the daggerboard to get pivot control over the boat. You need to practice how the boat feels with daggerboard down vs. up because the handling is completely different.

2. There's no substitute for dock line handling in adverse conditions. If you can toss a line to a mate on the dock to handle you in, you're in way better shape. Learn how to tie a monkey fist knot so you can throw lines farther to a person on the dock when you're coming in. If your your line handler is aboard, they'll have to learn to jump off at the first opportunity with the bow line, and then they can control the bow into position while the driver uses the motor to gently control the stern.

3. If you're not in calm water and you've got a dock available at your ramp, use line handling to get the boat on and off rather than powering. I bought two 100' 1/2" docklines that I use to deploy and trailer in high current or wind conditions. Basically I back the trailer down the ramp as close as possible to a tie-off dock, and run the lines over to the dock with the boat still strapped to the trailer, with the bow line wrapped back around the trailer guidepost. Once I've got both lines on cleats, I go back to the trailer and release the strap. The boat starts to drift back, but it's controlled by the lines. Because the bowline is wrapped behind the guide post, pulling it pulls the boat back before it pulls it to the side. I go back to the docklines and just pull in the bow and stern lines, which pulls the boat back off the trailer and over to the dock. This works in just about any conditions you'd consider sailing in. I reverse the procedure to line handle the boat back onto the trailer, tying to the dock first, then taking the bow line over to the trailer to handle the boat onto the trailer with a second person handling the stern line to keep positive control over the boat at all times. I've not figured out how to get the boat on the trailer without two people using line handling, but one person can get it off.

5. If the water is shallow enough, just jump in with the bow line and walk it to the dock

[gianpaolo]

I've been at the marina to check the place, not only the water is very shallow (which could be gotten over with the extensive and fully satisfying answers I got here from the friends who I still thank so much) but on its bottom it's got a sharp rocky prominence that puts the word "end" to the whole matter . I'll be looking for a different solution to the problem but in the meanwhile I must say I've learnt a lot from this discussion and I look forward to practice a lot about steering with rudders and daggerboard up, down, halfway 1/3 1/4th, forward and backward and if possible even sideway like a crab lol. Thanks all again

Gianpaolo