Genoa sheet cleats?

[Rick Westlake]

One of my first mods on Bossa Nova was a pair of genoa-track mounted camcleats ... I'm pretty sure they were made by Garhauer. They swivel and they have a steel-lined fairlead in front of the camcleat itself (which is made by Ronstan). They worked well last year, but this year they've started letting go in higher-loaded conditions. I'm ready to replace them with something better, mounted aft of the genoa track on the cockpit coaming.

I'd like to know if anyone has experience with my three possibilities - or can suggest something else that they use:

1. Spinlock PXR swivelling jam-cleat. Tugs up to uncleat, but seems more secure than camcleats. Safe working load (SWL), 440 lbs (200 kg) - which is equivalent to the wind load on a full-out 150% genoa at 22 kts, or the working jib at 28 kts.

2. Lewmar D1 line clutch. Quite a bit larger, doesn't swivel, and I have to throw its lever to release it; but its SWL is 1100 lbs (500 kg). Something else would break before this clutch let go.

3. Lewmar 14ST self-tailing winches. These are wider than the cockpit coamings, and I could only use four out of five bolts to secure them where I want them. They'd also be most expensive of all; but most bigger boats have quarter winches for the genoa sheets. (These are the smallest self-tailing winches available; but if I go with winches, I think it would be silly not to use self-tailers.)

Any thoughts? Any other recommendations? I'd appreciate your ideas!

[jschrade]

I had just been researching this and saw where someone just used the cleats aft of the Genoa track. Played with it in some pretty light winds, it's doable.

One guy moved his winches back behind the Genoa tracks like many other small boats do - I didn't ask if he could use all the bolts though.

Jim

[restless]

I'm seriously looking forward to trying these out...
I've since replaced the cleat with one of those self jamming types which seems to work really well. It means I can let the sheet go in a hurry. I'll post a photo if you would like further elucidation.
I woudn't use anything that the sheet needs to feed through, like jammers. I think you'll find it a major pita, furthermore, if you're in really bad conditions it could be dangerous as any snag or loop in the sheet under stress will probly not go through, hence self tailing winches/cam cleats are the order of the day.
For boats like ours, a winch is a bit overkill, and mine are mast winches. I bought a pair of antal 7a (same size as the standard ones) to go on, originaly with the view to putting a 'barton / wincheste' rubber jamming ring on... I know a few guys who use them and they seem fairly pleased. Significantly less expensive than a self tailer. I was going to mount the winch on a ss plate together with a decent ss cleat and fix the whole lot down to get round the width issue.
Alot of guys go for EZ cleats.. sounds like the sort of thing you've got already.

[magnetic]

After much agonising - and trying to contact Bill about Easy Cleats, to no avail - I have discounted the original idea of mounting self-tailers* and will soon be installing a pair of these - http://www.ronstan.com/marine/product.asp?prodno=RF5


The camcleat and block swivel through 90 degrees around the base of the assembly - in the photo you can just see the end of the silver pivot pin as it goes down into the base at the top right of the picture, and in that alignment the grey camcleat and block (red label) would swing horizontally from left to right; try instead to imagine the backing plate (which is vertical in the picture) being set horizontally on the existing genny track - the loads will be the same as on the existing sprung block, and the cam cleat can now swivel inboard (from vertical to horizontal), requiring a tug astern to lock the sheet and a flick forwards to release it. Well, after 3 hours fiddling around with various bits of Barton, Garhauer and Harken kit in the Hong Kong Yacht Club chandlery, that's the theory at least.

I am not worried about the working load of the 150% Genny, because I would never use the full sail in anything much more than a Force 4 - 5, and the existing swivel-block assembly would pull the [currently uncleated] sheet clean out of my hands if the load came anywhere close to 150kg - which is twice my body weight. My working assumption is therefore that the load on the sheets under all foreseeable conditions is typically a fraction of 150/300kg, and that a stress failure would in any case not be catastrophically dangerous - I'd just lose the sheet and probably trash the sail.

I now believe that the original needledick plastic winches on the coachroof are in fact for decoration only; they certainly are pretty useless and may well get in the way of my lines-aft configuration, which calls for a bank of rope clutches on each side of the companionway in approximately that location. I may therefore ditch the toy winches and use the existing backing plate to mount the clutches instead. Certainly, the original system of trapezing the sheet forward from the car onto the winches was totally ridiculous - very little control, and a pig to release when tacking singlehanded. I will let you know how I get on with the Ronstad setup and will try to put up a couple of photos.

* Mounting self-tailers. http://www.macgregorsailors.com/modt/in ... ?view=1062 - shows two small hatches set in the coaming either side of the pedestal in the cockpit of a ; not only did these appear to provide handy stowage for flares and other hand-held items, but the whole purpose was to allow access under the gunwale to set in a backing plate for a pair of winches. Fantastic idea! So I bought two waterproof hatches and matching PVC boxes to sit behind them (inside the coaming), and then went to try it out. The problem is that, on the at least, setting the hatches proud on the coaming in this location fouls the lift-up trapdoors over the fuel tanks and, given that these pivot through an arc, a slice would need to be cut off along the entire back.outboard side of each cover. Far too much work and I would likely botch it, so I decided against it!

I still have the hatches and I am damn-well determined to use them (John put a couple on the foredeck behind the anchor locker on his Highlander and they seemed to be quite useful), but I have spared myself the expense of Harket ST14 winches, which, upon reflection, were really just an attempt to convince myself that I had a proper yacht and not a turbocharged dinghy . Don't get me wrong - I love my , but I've given up pretending that I can make it into something which it's not. I just want to make what it is more user-friendly.

[restless]

user friendly
I think I read a post saying bill of ez cleat was retiring?
I did consider using a snubber winch (nice n small) or even one of the old type winches with a backwards & forward lever arm that goes in underneath..

[Highlander]

Andrew

Harken ratchet blocks with post mount are mounted on the stern seats are great for the spin sheets or genny sheets , #7 Lewmar winches i got for a song ! & Garhaurer swivel cam cleat on 1" slide on my genny track
http://i844.photobucket.com/albums/ab1/ ... 10/003.jpg

J

[robbiebull]

I went OTT with a pair of Lewmar size 16s with the self tailer adaptor on top, got them cheap so just went for it. I have installed a couple of eyelets on the side of the boat for sheaves for the spinnaker. Works well for spinnaker & also the 150 gen.

I will have to take some photos & stick on the site.

[Rick Westlake]

Okay, I can report SOME success with those Garelick genoa-track camcleats, or "EZ-cleats". These are Ronstan cam-cleats, mounted behind a bullseye fairlead on a swivel base that attaches to your genoa track. Here's a side view of my starboard cleat:

The problem, I found out, is that the arm holding the C-cleat flexes and bends upwards when there's tension put on the cleat. I duplicated the problem with one of my cabin-top winches; I was able to see how the cleat was pulled upwards. It didn't take much tension to create enough flex in the arm that the line was pulled upward, out of the cleat.

Seeing that, I decided to try mounting a "rope guide" between the bullseye and the cleat. This is a loop of stainless steel that fits in front of the cleat, and (I reasoned) should keep it from releasing by itself. Once I re-installed the cam cleat on the EZ-Cleat base, I winched down the testing line very tightly. It didn't release, even at this level of flexing:

The disadvantage with the "rope guide" is that it takes more of a pull, and a more directly upwards pull, to get the cleat to release. The advantage is that the guides cost only about $6 each, and I didn't have to replace the EZ-Cleats.

I tried them out this afternoon, with the working jib rather than the genoa, in pretty stiff winds on the Bay (there was a small-craft advisory). They held perfectly well. (The genoa would have been a better test, surely; but "15 with gusts to 20" is beyond my comfort level with the genoa up.)

More later - but thanks for your ideas!
- Rick

[parrothead]

Rick,

To cure the hard-to-cleat, hard-to-release issues - replace the cam cleats with aluminum-pawl Harken 150s. That's what I now have everywhere: EZcleats (for the asymmetric), traveller, jib sheets, mainsheet, and main halyard (on mast swivel mount). Love 'em!

Doug

[Highlander]

Rick

A Stanchion mounted ratchet block Harken #7402 will solve your problem run your sheetline through it then back to your cleat

J

[jschrade]

The Garhauer setup looks far more substantial at Kelly-Hansen Marine for the same price as the EZ-Cleats. I am thinking about getting these, any comments? I know that some use them.

http://www.kellyhansonmarine.com/apps/w ... ow/1504274

Jim

[parrothead]

To me, they appear to be exactly the same units - just photographed from a different angle. I bought mine from Bill, not K-H, because he was the only source at the time. It would be nice if someone offered them with the option of the Harken 150 cam cleat, but at this point you have to do the upgrade yourself.

[Terry]

Can someone provide a Garhauer part number for those genoa track mounted cleats please. I'd like to order a set but do not know where from or what the part number is. If they are a garhauer part then a marine store should be able to order them in. Thank you.

[c130king]

Can someone provide a Garhauer part number for those genoa track mounted cleats please. I'd like to order a set but do not know where from or what the part number is. If they are a garhauer part then a marine store should be able to order them in. Thank you.

Terry,

Kelly Hanson Marine sells them:

Gerhauer Swivel Cam Cleats

I have read some posts recently about slow/bad service from KH Marine...I had no issues with them but it has been quite a while since I ordered anything from them.

Cheers,
Jim

[Misha]

Garhauer refers them as : E-Z Glide Adjustable Genoa Car System SJ-1 - Stainless Steel Blocks. You can order them from Garhauer.