Following Seas with MAC X, M and Others

[Wa2paa]

Oh Fellow Water Ballast'd Sailors : QUESTION
I am very interested to hear about the different experiences had, while sailing or motoring in following or quartering Seas. While the Web is saturated with articles about powerboats both (Inboard & Outboard), not much on Water Ballast'd boats with Twin External Rudders, and movable centerboards or daggerboards.

Would like to get a feeing for different methods used to max. safety, and retain steering control during periods of following Seas. Motoring, Sailing, or Combo Motor/Sailing.

On second thought: Interested on the Strength of Rudders & Brackets during these high stress periods

Thanks in advance
Captain Jack

[kmclemore]

I've yet to hear of a rudder or bracket failing on a Mac from just experiencing a following or quartering sea. Most often they fail because of accidental impact with the bottom, dock, or submerged obstructions. Obviously, whenever sailing or if the boat is at all likely to experience instability, the ballast should be filled completely to ensure safety.

[Don T]

Hello,
We actually had a couple of members here break rudder brackets from side slipping with a following sea. Mad Mike for one and a European north sea sailor for another. I saw a Mac X up at Sucia in the San Juan Islands (2006) that had huge rudder gudgeons ( 1.5" pipe IIRC) after a trip in the Caribbean. The ones I remember were X boats with the aluminum brackets. I haven't heard of a stainless bracket breaking.

[ronacarme]

Following seas on the quarter push the stern of our 2001 X back and forth. We normally justtry to maintain a desired average course without constant wheel corrections. Ron

[DaveB]

Don, I have read all I could find on Aluminum brackets and failures were from a hitting a object to broaching at High speeds.
I still have my Aluminum brackets and after 2 years sailing I see no stress cracks. I sail the Gulf and been in 6-8 ft. seas and one must keep the boat in control.
Takeing a Mac. occross the Gulf Stream is dangerious in any weather because you don't know the weather for return trip or chance it due to time limits.
I have been accross many times but not in a Mac. and one has to have a very good open window for a Mac. the 52 mile trip can change very fast and you cannot do 20 knots accross regardless how many Ponies you have and most likely 6 knots at best.
If you do a sudden change accross a 3 knot current in 4-6 ft. seas you can easy break a rudder or bracket on a Mac.
No doubt the aluminum rudder bracket caused many failures, why Rodger went to stainless steel but if one knows it's limits and a good sailor I see no reason to change.
Dave

Hello,
We actually had a couple of members here break rudder brackets from side slipping with a following sea. Mad Mike for one and a European north sea sailor for another. I saw a Mac X up at Sucia in the San Juan Islands (2006) that had huge rudder gudgeons ( 1.5" pipe IIRC) after a trip in the Caribbean. The ones I remember were X boats with the aluminum brackets. I haven't heard of a stainless bracket breaking.

[Don T]

Dave,
I'm on my second set, not because they broke but because the early ones kept bending. It fatigued the metal so they bent easier each time. Have had the improved "second design" aluminum brackets since 1997 and they have held up fine although I've NOT been across any large ponds.

On Edit: I have a friend who lives in Cape Coral, we plan to trailer there some day.

[ROAD Soldier]

Since the original topic author has an Odin 820 I don't think whether you have aluminum SS bracket really relates to him. I think he want handling issues answered so here are some that I use.

1. Most situations like that sit down and let the Auto Pilot do the work no matter if you are sailing, power sailing, or motor sailing. You will get more movement the faster you go so less sailing as opposed to power sailing at WOT.

2. At lower speeds under 8MPH put rudders down and slight centerboard for my swing keel 26x about 2" of rope out.

3. If things really get rough go slow and drag some anchor rope without the anchor across the stern in a loop.

4. If things get extremely rough idle engine since the waves are pushing you in the direction you want to go anyways while dragging a drift anchor that smoothes things out and use engine if needed to make slight corrections on course.

[c130king]

One of the problems I have seen once in Norfolk, VA trying to enter the James River from the Chesapeake, once in the Wash in the UK (with Bastonjock) motoring to our overnight anchorage, and once in the Solent trying to work our way around the Isle of Wight (with RickJ) was that if you go slow with the boards down in a following sea you will find yourself surfing down the front side of a swell/wave and hitting double digits in speed...and then slowing to just a couple of knots once the crest has passed you and you are trying to climb the hill.

At least that was my experience.

I don't like going that fast with boards down.

So I found it more comfortable to go boards up and try to go a little faster. Throttle down when you start to surf and throttle up as you climb the back side.

Just a thought.

Cheers,
Jim
Sailing on König

[magnetic]

The problem with double-digit surfing is that, if you bury the bow into the back of the wave in front, you will broach and then roll when the following wave lifts the stern. Having the rudders down is key to restricting the down-slope speed, and the centreboard is important to moderate the tendency to slip sideways.

These lessons were learned the hard way in my old in a F6 NW off the west coast of the Isle of Wight, including wind-on-tide off St Catherines Point which saw the rescue helicopter out 3 times in a single morning (none of which involved me )

[Phil M]

The problem with double-digit surfing is that, if you bury the bow into the back of the wave in front, you will broach and then roll when the following wave lifts the stern. Having the rudders down is key to restricting the down-slope speed, and the centreboard is important to moderate the tendency to slip sideways.

I agree with Magnetic. I would also like to add that the Macgregor is more stable running downwind under full ballast than powering with motor. If you can afford the slower pace, reef a sail and use it. It is a more comfortable ride, and there is less stress on the boat, including the rudders.

Phil M

[DaveB]

Don, Thanks for the Info on rudders. I have always kept my eye on the after 2+ years of pre. owner rudders. I know they can bend upwards and have used washers so bolts don't scrape deck. I have seen no fatigue in the brackets just a slight bending of the arm from previous owner.
Give me a call and do a Cruise with WCTSS (West Coast Trailer Sailors Squardren)
when you arrive or friends .
Dave

Dave,
I'm on my second set, not because they broke but because the early ones kept bending. It fatigued the metal so they bent easier each time. Have had the improved "second design" aluminum brackets since 1997 and they have held up fine although I've NOT been across any large ponds.

On Edit: I have a friend who lives in Cape Coral, we plan to trailer there some day.