thanks for all the ideas, question about boat handling

[iredrider1177]

i wanted to thank all the regulars on here for all of their excellent ideas of which ive applied many., had an excellent last four days at seneca lake here in ohio with my had many compliments also i actually like my boat better now too......hehe. but anyhoo a question about sailing, i have only had this boat out on 3 previous daysails, 2 of which we sat mostly windless, so four days of solid wind was a steep learning curve, dun great till yesterday, winds picked up alot about noon , the lake started to whitecap, not sure of windspeed, but we were sailing on a broad reach with full main and 150% genny and sailing fast. as we were approaching land i was trying to turn port to sail douse the sails some but the boat was trying hard to go starboard well as i got sloser to land i thought i would just turn starboard into the wind as the boat was dang near doing it itself, well as it did it almost knocked us totally over when the wind hit us broadside, the mast was prob within a couple of feet from the water and the genny touched b4 i got it rounded out and strait into the wind, almost fell out and my gf wasnt too pleased either, we quit for the day , had to check my pants. i tryed to explain best i could bein my lack of experience.what did we do wrong? should we have reefed when the wind started to really pick up? maybe released the sails when things started to get really uncomfortable? i believe i should have doused sail when i started to loose steering control but we were we were flying and having a blast, comments? suggestions would be appreciated .

[Russ]

as we were approaching land i was trying to turn port to sail douse the sails

I'm not sure what you mean by "douse the sails".

My guess is what you did wrong was not let the sails out before you turned up into the wind. In a heavy wind, just before the boat turns directly into the wind, the boat will heal strongly. Therefore if this is a possibility, you should ease off on the sails as you are turning into the wind.



--Russ

[iredrider1177]

by douse i meant spill some of the wind just by turning more with the wind( in the same direction the wind is blowing) but the boat seemed to be pulling hard toward the wind to the point i couldnt (come about?) i just kinda froze up when i couldnt get it to turn and tried to turn straight into the wind because the boat wa trying hard to go that way anyhow. and when we were broadside we about went totally over. lost my beer. normally we were releasing the genny lines to let the sail drift across then tighten down when we were sailing into the wind and (tacking?)

[Catigale]

Ballast in of course??? Always worth checking..

It sounds like you were overpowered and the sails were steering the boat. Macs are somewhat 'under-ruddered' and too much sail will overpower the helm - not a very good experience usually.

Also remember if you are heading downwind even a bit, the velocity of the boat subtracts from the "apparent wind" (he wind the boat actually feels), but when you turn upwind to tack, the boat speed suddenly adds to the apparent wind and then you are 'grossly over powered' = that usually also sucks.

[bscott]

White caps are a "too late" an indicator of high winds and you should have reefed in the 150 to 100 as soon as the the white streamers showed up. While on a stbd broad reach, in order to reach to port, you have to manually pull the main to centerline and hold it there while turning the wheel and releasing the jib. This is called a gybe and is a quick way to turn you away from land. Once the boat start to turn, slowly release the main being careful not to let the boom slam over too hard. Harden up the jib once the main is set on the new course. A good pair of sailing gloves is a must. As soon as things settle down, come to a close reach, drop the engine and reef the main or hove to and check your shorts.

I always reef early when sailing with a new crew and practice gybing in low wind conditions to avoid domestic confrontations

Bob.

[Russ]

by douse i meant spill some of the wind just by turning more with the wind( in the same direction the wind is blowing) but the boat seemed to be pulling hard toward the wind to the point i couldnt (come about?) i just kinda froze up when i couldnt get it to turn and tried to turn straight into the wind because the boat wa trying hard to go that way anyhow. and when we were broadside we about went totally over. lost my beer. normally we were releasing the genny lines to let the sail drift across then tighten down when we were sailing into the wind and (tacking?)

Okay...so if I understand you.
The boat wanted to point up into the direction the wind was coming FROM (called weather helm).
And if I understand, what probably happened was the boat stalled. No motion, no steering. Eventually the wind will blow you around and with no motion the wind is gonna blow you over (as it's perpendicular to you) until the boat starts to move again. Let the sails go! Tighten up gently until you get motion again.

Ya know, in conditions like that it doesn't hurt to have the motor down and ready to kick on to help you out of a spot.

On the bright side, you have seen some bad stuff and know you can survive.


--Russ

[c130king]

My experience is that as the wind starts to strengthen (maybe above 12-15 mph) and as I start to head up a little bit more into the wind the boat will start to heel further...

And eventually the boat will start to develop some weather-helm and try turn itself into the wind despite my trying to the turn the wheel the other way...

That is fairly normal for an . Let the sails out some...but they may start flapping/chattering. That is time to reef as has been mentioned.

But if I have some speed on (say > 3-4 mph) the boat will not layover...it will heel pretty far...maybel 45 degrees or even a little further but as it does this it will start rounding up (naturally induced weather helm) hard and end up pointing straight into the wind. Somewhat scary as it starts to happen but it will round up. I don't think I could get my boat to layover if it had that forward speed.

All bets are off if you are standing still and catch a big beam gust.

You will probably learn to enjoy those situations once you get some more experience in those types of conditions.

Cheers,
Jim
Sailing on König

[delevi]

Your sails were probably overtrimmed and from what you describe, you certainly had way too much sail up. With enough wind and lots of sail area, any boat will be overpowered by the sails and the helm/rudder becomes nearly useless. The 150 genoa is a huge sail for this boat and should be reduced in size when the wind goes over 13 knots. To go back to the "pinch" you were in, if you eased out the genoa sheet, you would have regained helm control. I assume your main was already sheeted out all the way. If not, easing out the main would be needed as well. Another important point to remember is "less is more" when it comes to steering. If you turn the wheel hard over, your rudders will stall and will do little to nothing. About half way is optimal. One good tactic both upwind and down is to turn the wheel about 1/3 revolution away from the wind (assuming you are being pulled towards the wind when you don't want to be) Hold the wheel in that position and avoid the temptation to turn further. The rudders will eventually develop enough lift to get you back on course. Assuming of course your sails are properly trimmed and you are not overcanvassed. As Catigale pointed out, the wind velocity seems much less than it is when sailing down wind. When you turn up wind, you feel its true force and oftentimes it can overpower the boat. Next time you are in heavy air, use less sail area; i.e. roll in some of the genoa if you have roller furling. Change to the working jib if you have one. Reef the mainsail. You may not need to do all of these things. It all depends on how much wind there is. One more tidbit. Going downwind in heavy air causes the bow to dig. This is especially true with a large headsail like the 150 genoa. The result is a tendancy for the boat to head upwind as it literally trips over the bow. Reduce headsail size and you will sail a straighter, more controlled course. Make sure the mainsail is all the way out to the spreaders. Crank down the boom vang. Same priciples apply for upwind sailing with respect to the correct amount of sail area for the given conditions. Of course sail trim will be completely different. Upwind, reef the main first, then the jib. If you're flying the genoa, roll it to jib size. Next step would be to reef the main. Then roll in more genoa if needed.

Have fun and fair winds,
Leon

[iredrider1177]

c1king and delivi explained almost exactly what happened, the wind was blowen decent for a couple days and we got real comfy with the heeling then by yesterday afternoon it was blowen a bit harder,i always had both sails all the way out. i believe i had too much sail up and was thinking that for about 20 min or so . i was trying to oversteer now as the wind was trying to pull me into it i believe i had it turned all the way, then almost came to a stop turned the wheel the other way cause it felt like it was pulling me that way ,but i was happy the boat did point right into the wind and righted itself right away, having not experienced that i basically froze and it seemed like it was happening in slow motion. i do remember dang we probably should be doing something because it was getting hard to keep things going strait. you live and learn i gues, cant wait till next time! yes ballast was in. thanx

[NiceAft]

iredrider1177,

I'm glad you comprehended everything that was explained. Remember this, if you get into a similar situation (the next time though, you will have less sail up, correct ), just release the mainsheet, and the the Genny. You will slow down real fast. You can always lower the motor to get out of a situation.

You will get the hang of it, if it doesn't kill you first

Ray

[Indulgence]

The more white you see on the water,
the less white you want on your mast.

I know, stick to gardening

[Trouts Dream]

I subscribe to the idea that if you think you should reef it might already be too late so reef now. You can always shake the reef back out and it's good practice.

[iredrider1177]

good thing i can swim well

[c130king]

A good idea is to practice reefing when the winds are light.

And practice "heaving to" when the winds are light as well. When you are out there with full sails and the winds pick up "heaving to" is a good way keep the boat under control while you put in your reef.

Lots of threads on this.

Good Luck.

Cheers,
Jim
Sailing on König

[Scott]

The effect you describe is common. When you see boats heeled way over near the rail they are beating up into the wind. As you were on a broad reach your lift from the sails was translated into forward motion. (as described by you) As you begin to come into the wind more of that same lift that provided speed is translated into heel. Lifting to the side and laying the boat over.

As stated in an earlier response you were likely sheeted in tight. As you rounded up the sails took a good set and powered up.