Tightening of stays on 26X

[zenod]

I had had to deal with a loose forestay since purchasing my 26X. I tried tightening the backstay as much as possible, but that didn't help. I have the slotted chainplates that came with the mast, not turnbuckles-anybody know what I'm doing wrong? Thanks

[Chip Hindes]

The backstay tension is not the primary means of adjusting forestay tension. It has little effect on overall rig tension. The forestay cannot be the only loose stay; if the forestay is loose, so are the side stays or shrouds.

I assume you have the roller furler and have never lifted the drum; otherwise you would have mentioned that the forestay does indeed have a turnbuckle. This is the primary means of adjusting overall rig tension.

The owners manual covers the procedure for adjusting the stays in detail. I suggest you read it first, try it and then if you still have questions come back and ask them.

[Jack O'Brien]

The X Manual has a basic but adequate procedure.

A Loos Tension Gauge is a real help to tensioning properly. So is one of those shroud adjuster wrenchs sold by Bill at Boats4Sale. Generally, first loosen the backstay as much as you can then adjust the forestay turnbuckle (under the furler drum) to minimize rake. Be sure to pin or wire the turnbuckle when you are done adjusting so it can't unscrew itself as the furler turns.

[Dan B]

Couple of things I found to help on my X -
1) Do check the inner/out shroud tension also as they are the primary tension points for our fractional rigging.
2) A Loos Gauge is very helpful in getting tension equal on both sides.
3) Depending on whether you trailer or not affects your acceptable tension. Too high on the shrouds and you will have great trouble getting the forestay pinned.
4) My forestay was sagging a bit and had never been adjusted. I raised the drum to check the turnbuckle, but found that I could adjust it properly by simply tightening the line that holds downward tension along the luff. My guess is the line had stretched over time and it simply needed tightened. The forestay now sags less as the weight is being pulled down more along the luff rather than sagging.
5) While you are up there - check your forestay pin. I found mine collecting a bit of rust and had actually started to wear through from the friction of the pin against the forestang tang. The pin had a groove worn in it.

[Dimitri-2000X-Tampa]

Actually, since I put in my adjustable backstay mod, it does seem like you can tighten the forestay by tightening the backstay. But then what you are left with is quite a bit of bend (versus rake) in the mast from about the lower shrouds on upward. I was just noticing this yesterday and was wondering if it is too much and could permanently bend the mast...maybe I should back it off a bit.

[Frank C]

Dimitri,
Our fractional mast (all fractionals?) stand erect due to triangulation of the forestay and shrouds - backstay is primarily for running (to support the mast tip, e.g. versus the pull of a spinnaker), and for adjusting shape of the mainsail.

Going upwind, the backstay can only affect the mast above the spreaders. Its job is to flatten the belly of the main, especially for reducing heeling in high winds. You should always release that tension when the rig is idle for exactly the reasons you surmised.

[Dullboy]

For my first time sailing with my Mac, (story will get posted on another thread), I found the shrouds and backstay too tight. The PO had them so tight that there was a definite bend in the upper mast. It took considerable force to get the furler in place. Having never sailed nor rigged before, I was a blind squirrel looking for a nut, but it just didn't seem right. The boat came with the 26x mast raising rig and I had to really winch that in tight as well.

I eased all three sides and the furler took only myself to connect it by Just a little bit "over tight" on the mast raising rig and by putting my 200 lbs into it. The shrouds and backstay were firm and everything seemed alright.

I wonder if some have a tendancy to overtighten in an attempt to make the wire sing.

Dave

[Chip Hindes]

I wonder if some have a tendancy to overtighten in an attempt to make the wire sing.

Almost certainly not. You can't tell for sure without a tension gauge, but in my experience the tendency is to run with the rig far too loose in order to ease pinning the forestay, just as you've done. In fact, a properly tensioned rig will sing, albeit a rather low note.

As long as you can pin the forestay by almost any method, I'll wager the the rig is not too tight. If I were you I'd put it back where it was.

[Dullboy]

I respect your opinion Chip, but I'm not conviced.

First, the stays are not loose at all. Quite firm. Second, in the speedy rigger video, the gentleman steps back into the jib halyard to provide enough enough way to attach the forestay. Now, I do have the furler, but I still have to put quite a bit more pressure than that to get it into position.

[Duane Dunn, Allegro]

Have you read this? It is pretty complete.

http://macgregorsailors.com/articles/tuning_fracrig.php

Here is the cliff notes version to tuning the rig.

1. - With the uppers and the lowers fairly slack, adjust the forestay to the desired rake. The rake is relative to the water, not the deck or boot stripe.

2. - Tighten the uppers to induce the desired static bend in the mast. As you tighten the uppers the spreaders push forward on the mast creating the bend. There should be some static bend in the mast. Of course the mast should be straight side to side.

3. - Tighten the lowers to lock in the static bend induced by the uppers and prevent the mast from pumping further forward.

Proper rig tension will give a low bass drumming note when struck. Both uppers and lowers will have similar notes. The backstay plays no part in initial rig tuning and should be slack during the process. You do not need the backstay to hold the mast up (evidenced by the M which doesn't even have one).

4. - Use the adjustable backstay to add extra bend to the mast when you need to flatten the sail. If you don't have an adjustable backstay set it just tight enough to provide support when going down wind. You may find it helps to release the backstay completely when pinning the forestay.

I do agree with Chip that most rigs are tuned on the loose side for ease of mast stepping. I don't think that this is really an issue. It's just a difference you have to accept on a trailerable sailboat.

A sign of a loose rig is if the downwind shrouds go loose when on a reach. Take a look behind that sail in a good wind a see if this is happening. If it is, your rig will be subject to higher shock loads than a properly tight rig.

[Chip Hindes]

Second, in the speedy rigger video, the gentleman steps back into the jib halyard to provide enough enough way to attach the forestay.

I'm quite familiar with the speedy rigger video. I believe Jeff has made a compromise to speed the rigging process. I'm pretty certain his rig is too loose, though I will admit the weight of the furler and sail makes it way more difficult to get adequate tension on a furler equipped boat. I reiterate, though, even with the mast raising gear cranked very tight, if it's easy to pin the furler the rig is too loose.

You mentioned on another thread your backstay was bowing the mast considerably. A backstay which is too tight will make the furler hard to pin and can prevent you from attaining adequate tension on the shrouds.

A means of roughly checking the rigging tension without the gauge is to look at the leeward shrouds when the boat is on a beam reach. If they're flopping in the breeze, they're too loose.

[Moe]

Having only ever demasted a 26X, all I can do is look at what the owner's manual says about rig tuning. It doesn't say this outright, but I'd imagine you have to start with all the cables a little loose.

Step 1 - Adjust the backstay so that the mast is 94 degrees back from the deck in front of the mast.

Step 2 - Take all of the slack out of the forestay by adjusting its turnbuckle.

Because the mast tends to lean back against the forestay, it seems to me these are backwards and it would be more logical to set the rake with the forestay, and take the slack out of the backstay. But I do understand this would make the rake even greater, while doing it in their order would reduce it slightly. I also appreciate the fact many consider this to be too much rake, and that some consider that the rake should be relative to the waterline, not the deck.

Step 3 - Tighten the upper shrouds, ensuring the mast is straight side to side.

Step 4 - Tighten the lower shrouds, ensuring that they don't pull the lower part of the mast aft.

They describe how, with two people, that one person pull one shroud, for example the lower shroud, inward about 4' up from the deck to loosen the the other shroud, the upper one in this example, for the other person to tighten. But they warn it's easy to overtighten the shrouds doing this.

They do later state that the mast should have a 2" bow in it, and how to measure it with the halyard, but they don't tell you that Step 3 puts the bow in the mast and that Step 4 just locks it in. That would be more helpful to know when you're actually doing Step 3.

They make the point that the final tensioning should be done with the forestay turnbuckle, not the backstay.

They also say that the downwind shrouds may be loose when sailing hard, and that the backstay may be loose when sailing into the wind... like these things are normal. I see Chip H disagrees.

I bought a Loos tension gauge to make sure it's even when I finally do get to step the mast, as well as a RAT (Rig Adjusting Tool) from www.boats4sail.info to make it easier. I obviously haven't used it on the rigging, but it did work pretty well on the lifelines. I also bought a couple of the big-headed clevis pins from www.bwyachts.com to make pinning the forestay a little easier.

Since we're going to moor next year and only be stepping the mast once or twice, I didn't do it, but if I were going to be trailering, I'd consider one of these Backstay Tension Levers to ease the tension and make the forestay easier to pin. West Marine also carries them but at a higher price.

The money spent on that might be better spent toward a backstay adjuster for when I get more experience and want to finer-tune the sails however, and it could also release tension on the forestay.

Just a few words from someone who has absolutely no experience at this, in case your Mac didn't come with an owner's manual. If that's the case, contact them at the phone number on their website and they'll send you one free (that may be because the owner in the kid's drowning case claimed to not have an owners manual).

--
Moe

[Duane Dunn, Allegro]

Most people find 4 degrees back of rake induces too much weather helm. It is the factories cover your ass setting that makes the boat round up rather than heel in puffs. This is like a training wheels for newbies. Most set their rake much closer to vertical. This will help the boat hold it's course in the puffs. To understand how this works just study a bit about how you sail a windsurfer. It has no rudder. You lean the mast forward or backward to make it turn into or away from the wind.

With the mast set more forward many find they have the forestay turnbuckle fully closed. Some have even shortened the forestay to get the mast to the right position. I found once I got my mast in the right rake position my backstay was too short. I could not even put it in the last hole. Ultimately this led to my fashioning a small backstay adjuster which also has the benefit of allowing me to leave the backstay totally slack when stepping the mast. If you don't want to do add this another solution is to insert a 3" stainless tang between the adjuster and it's connection to the deck. This is the simplest way to lengthen the backstay.

Remember, when you are tuning the rig the backstay should be disconnected. It is the last thing to adjust. You can, as the manual says, use it to oppose the forstay when setting the rake but I found this to be unecessary. Just loosening the 4 shrouds a few hole gives you the slack to adjust the forestay yet still keeps the mast in place.

As you can see from the factory instructions they encourage you to just live with the loose rig for convienience when stepping. You just have to find the tradeoff you are comfortable with. Some are willing to deal with a hard to pin forestay for the sake of better rig tension. I know some even lift their furler drum and tighten the turnbuckle every time they rig. Others take the easy factory endorsed route of loose rigging.

I just go for a happy medium. I dont't want to spend the time to tighten turnbuckles each time but I do want a reasonable tight rig. I get very little slack on downwind shrouds. It takes quite a bit of tension on the raising gear to pin my forestay. My wife does the pinning while standing on the trailer at the bow. This seems to give a better angle for pulling the furler forward.

I must also say that the brief time I experimented with a forstay lever at the bottom of the forestay I was encouraged by the results. I need to dig it back out again and do a little refinement on the hole alignment. This seems to be a good solution that let's you get a bit higher tension without the hassel at rigging time. I built it out of the spare adjuster body I had once I installed the backstay adjuster. It's pretty much the standard "Windarra" model.



http://www3.telus.net/harbro/tuning.htm

Using one of those backstay levers on the backstay is a waste of money. The backstay on a fractional rig does not have much influence of forestay tension. You don't need high tension on the backstay. Skip it and spend half the money on a simple backstay adjuster.

I have however seen some people use backstay adjusters below the drum on the forestay. I used to have this exact setup on my previous boat and it worked great. You do however have to either shorten the forestay / furler foil / and sail luff or raise the forestay attachment point to incorporate one of these into the rig.

[Chip Hindes]

They also say that the downwind shrouds may be loose when sailing hard, and that the backstay may be loose when sailing into the wind... like these things are normal. I see Chip H disagrees.

Not necessarily. Not to quibble, but that depends entirely on your definition of "loose". If I may say so, the term "loose" is a pretty poor choice of words for someone who is looking for a definitive answer.

Though some may think it no better, my definition of the proper degree of "loose" for the leeward shrouds on a correctly tuned rig is "not tight". My above description of the same thing on a rig that is too loose was "flopping in the breeze".

I think those who have a rig tension gauge will be pretty amazed at how tight a properly adjusted rig is. Note, though, that even then there is a fair amount of leeway, since nobody has ever published what is the correct gauge reading in a properly tensioned Mac rig. You must therefore base your numbers on wire diameter, configuration, and a fair share of personal preference, or PFW (a euphemism for "Whim"), as one of my engineering friends once put it.

[Moe]

Thanks for clearing that up, Chip.

--
Moe