Sloop or Cutter ?

[Gypsy]

Is a 26X considered a sloop or a cutter ?

If I understand it correctly , It depends on the placement of the mast , whether its forward or towards the stern.

[Russ]

The Mac 26 is a sloop. Unless you do this to it.

[Rick Westlake]

Yes, Gypsy, you do understand it correctly. It's Highlander who has it wrong ...

Many people use "cutter" to denote a boat with two sails forward, one sail aft. You could make a sloop into this sort of "cutter" by adding an inner forestay and a staysail. That's "An Hileanto'ir III", Highlander's 26M, in the photo posted by RussMT. (I'm teasing when I say "he has it wrong." He's done marvels with his boat!)

But a proper cutter has the mast further aft than you'd find on a sloop, so the "center of effort" of the sail-plan is different - it is designed from the very start to fly jib and staysail.

I have considered adding a stays'l to Bossa Nova's sail plan. I've gone as far as replacing the factory-original mast raising eye with a Wichard folding pad-eye, and fitting a long 2x4 backing-plate under it to take the forces of a stays'l. That was while I was replacing the original bow cleats with bigger, stainless-steel Herreshoff cleats. Haven't done anything more about it, but maybe this winter I'll get up the guts....

And maybe Highlander will step a mizzenmast, and sail the world's first MacYawl!

[delevi]

It's a sloop. A sloop cannot be made into a cutter or vise versa. What Highlander did is create a multi-headsail sloop. A cutter has its mast located around the center of the boat while a sloop would have its mast more forward. A cutter is typically identified as having two headsails, but it is the mast & keel location that technically differentiates between the two.

on edit: Posted this before I saw Rick's post. Looks like you beat me to the punch.

Cheers,
Leon

[TexasDan40]

Looks like a homemade cutter to me.
Whatever it is, I bet it'll really fly.
Tex

[Currie]

The argument of what a cutter is will rage on for centuries to come. Some say the cutter must have an aftward mast (or a boom that extends well aft). Some say a sloop with two headsails is basically a cutter and the old definition is old-fashioned and out of date. If that's not bad enough, it seems to vary by country with the U.S. being the ones who seem to be refusing to budge on the traditional definition. Many today accept the double-headed sloop as "cutter-rigged". Others will then argue that their boat is a "true" cutter. Oy.

[delevi]

I suppose you can call it whatever you want. Bottom line is how well does she sail? Most fractionally rigged sloops like the Mac are designed to get the majority of power from the mainsail. A masthead rigged sloop with large fore-triangle will get the majority of its power from the genoa. The true cutter relies on all three of its sails unless the wind conditions warrant dropping the genoa or yankee. In my experience with the the headsail overpowers the boat quicker than the mainsail, so I usually roller reef the head before reefing the main. I would imagine Highlander's boat will sail well with its multiple headsails in something up to 10 knots. After that, things can get hairy... Advantage, however, is he can use any of four roller-furling headsails for the conditions and use multiple headsails in light air. The only real downside I see is carrying all that weight up high.

Leon

[Highlander]

Rick
cutter rigged mac yawl has already been done to this 26s or 26d from lake Superior
http://i78.photobucket.com/albums/j95/m ... /GILGA.jpg

Sorry to have disappointed you !

but here's Roger's 70m

http://i78.photobucket.com/albums/j95/m ... _large.jpg
Tex
Yep she really can fly see how fast she is catching up with that 40ftr in the distance in this vid and yes we did past him !
http://s844.photobucket.com/albums/ab1/ ... 010090.flv
J

[c130king]

... In my experience with the the headsail overpowers the boat quicker than the mainsail, so I usually roller reef the head before reefing the main.

Not meaning to start a big debate but my experience was just the opposite. Main only in stiff winds was hard to control...reefed main with full 150 Genoa was more controllable. Thus I reef the main first. But I am pretty sure that Leon has faced much higher wind speeds in SF Bay then I have in North Florida.

Cheers,
Jim

[delevi]

Not meaning to start a big debate but my experience was just the opposite. Main only in stiff winds was hard to control...reefed main with full 150 Genoa was more controllable.

Why not? It's all good.

I didn't mean main only. I meant full main with partial jib (not genny) as a first reefing measure. Then start reefing the mainsail as needed. Results may vary. The 150 genoa quickly looses its upwind eficiency when reefed, so if that's what's on the furler, reefing the main will likely yield better results... but that genny is so big, you really can't fly the whole thing in a blow, even with reefed main. The setup would be different on points of sail below a close reach. If you factor in waves on the beam or stern quarter, everything changes, but that discussion already took place.

John,
Nice video. Glad to see all that canvas used to power the Mac past a 40 footer. Sweet!

[Highlander]

Leon

You have no idea just how sweet it is when I pass other boats with all that rag up and of course I get alot of hard looks of disgust when they realize whats passing them , because I am cutter rigged most people dont reconize whats going by them then its "Na Say It Aint So" some will fly more rag to try & pass me or they change direction in discust
But I think I could get a few more nkts if I made a weighted winged dagger board

J
PS usually when I get back to my slip theirs a few people waiting with cameras in hand taking pics

[delevi]

John, If you think the trunk can handle the load, go to at least 300 lbs with that wing. I can say 200 is no problem, 3 yrs+ with that. If you're able to fabricate a bulb, I think it would work better than a wing. Just a theory, but I think any more lift and you'll have too much weather helm. If that's the case, than the excess drag would slow you down a bit too. Only wing keels I've run across are for shoal draft. A deep fin with a wing...??? Not sure. A bulb wouldn't have these issues and you can pack a lot of weigh in a small lead torpedo bulb. Of course, winglets would be considerably easier to make than a torpedo.

Leon

[beene]

Leon's playground is unlike most on this board.

From my experience, most of us have a stock boat, with minor mods that do not dramatically affect the sailing characteristics of the boat.
More convenience things if anything. Rigging and that sort of thing. John and Leon being obvious exceptions.

On my lake, sailing is completely different than Leon's sailing area.
I never have current issues, swells, big waves, or vessels that will run you ass over if you, say break a rudder mid tack xing their path.

I have found what others have also said. In heavier winds, reefing the main 1st, and keeping full genny works best for me.
I find keeping the wind strength closer to the hull seems to keep her sailing better with less heal.
She is a tender boat, to be sure.
Leon's extra keel weight changes that yet again.
I have yet to fly the jib, still in the bag.
I just roller reef the genny when a deep reefed main still is not enough to keep the heel below 45+ in heavy air.
No doubt the jib would do a much better job in this case.

Cheers

G

[Highlander]

When we were chasing down that 40ft boat in that video full jib,genny & main sail . Alex kept telling me John to much heel to much sail in the winds we were in , he said reduce sail & heel she will be faster . I said OK Alex watch this when we were about 100ft from the 40ft boat I furled in the genny now only full jib & main we did not reduce heel by more than say 5-7 degrees but our speed dropped off drastically I'd say more than 3nkts and we watched that 40ft boat pull away about 200ft then I rolled out the genny again full main ,jib and genny and we took off like the cats a$$ and pasted that 40ft boat , you'd be amazed what a diff it makes by moving the genny out 3-4ft and the boat points higher and no weather helm
I think a winged dagger board will let the boat point higher, less drift when tacking , and I think she will cut through the water "big waves" better
In the start of that video look how far away that 40ft boat was and in that short time of that video we caught up & shortly we passed him this vid has not been doctored
J

[delevi]

I think a winged dagger board will let the boat point higher, less drift when tacking , and I think she will cut through the water "big waves" better

Ok. When you finish it, just drop it Fedex and I'll test it out for you