I hate the rudder

[Pete]

The second time out with the V22 and again the rudder showed its ugly head. Here are the problems:

1. It’s very heavy. I bet it weighs around 60-70 lbs, and trying to lower it over the stern to mount it or remove it is a real chore. (at least with out scratching the paint)
2. I have to remove it to trailer, which takes us back to point 1.
3. It doesn’t like to pivot down. And its hard to get it to stay down. I have the proper down haul, although the pivot could use some work to free it up.
4. If it kicks up while sailing it was a real problem, very hard to steer while in the up position. I had to climb over the stern and push it down with my feet while underway several times.

So this got me thinking. How about a dagger rudder. Here are the positives

1. no weather helm when partway up. Shallow water no problem.
2. leave it on while trailering, you could have a mast crutch right on the top of the rudder to support the mast when down and rudder up. Which would eliminate that rusty pole thing.
3. it would retract fully above the bottom of the stern so no need to remove it for beaching.

Pete

[John Jessie]

Pete,

I've never seen a dagger rudder on a Mac. If you can figure out how to fabricate one, PLEASE show us. That would be a great alternative. I put a rope clutch on mine to hold my rudder in the extended position. That works most of the time but can still be cumbersome. Good luck and post pictures.

[sailor ja]

Pete I found this image on the web and was wonder if this was somewhat like what you were talking about?


I have not had the chance of using my V21 yet but I can see how the rudder system would give us problems. If this is going to be the case I would like to search for an alternative as well. If you need any stainless steel welded up or fabricated let me know I could create something like that.

[ChockFullOnuts22]

It kicks up on its own while underway? Don't you have a cleat below the base of your tiller? My rudder has the cleat, so that you tie the rudder off in either the up or down positions.

Did you ever address that pivot issue from your other post?

[johnnyonspot]

As long as everything is set up properly I don't know why you would have a problem with the rudder coming up while underway. Never happened to me with my Mac 25 and I believe the set up is the same with the V22.

[MD Dunaway]

I have a V21 and I've never had that problem.

[markaram]

Hi everyone
On my Mac 21 i use the stock rudder and lock it down
with a bolt and wingnut. Of course this is good for only
deep water sailing and one must lean over the transom
and reach down to install the lockdown bolt but the
result is a good performing rudder. It also has a small
hole near the bottom of the blade that allows water
to enter and fill the space inside the rudder. This
adds stability to the rudder.
I also have a short 4in length of clear plastic tubing that
will fit into the hole for the lockdown bolt so I can use
the tubing instead of the bolt when sailing in shallower
waters and allow the rudder to kick up at least a few inches
upon hitting something.

The transome height on the 22 is greater than the 21 and
Im wondering if one could easily install a lockdown bolt on
the 22 rudder the same way , by leaning over the transom.
any thoughts?

markaram
Mac 21
Port Credit
Ontario

[JoeVacs]

Pete,
I only see one problem with that idea. The rudder won't be able to kick up , out of the way if you hit something. It will instead, break off, or worse, break a big hole in the transom. I was in shallow water last summer and had the keel pulled half way up and the rudder ran aground and snapped the line that tied it in the down possition. I use cheap line for that reason, so nothing expensive will break. With a rudder like you're describing, i would've had something tragic happen.

[old guys sail]

Please keep this thread going. I am learning so much. I just got an original rudder tiller unit for my V22. Trying to figure it out. The lower section of the rudder is in a partially "up " position. It that the way it sails? It really resists being lowered. PErhaps the bolt is too tight. I assumed from your posts it will fall right down in line with the upper half, and all you have to do is bring it up with the rope and tie it off.
Another slightly different topic--the tiller is cracked/delaminating from the attached end down about 10". How hard is it to make one--from a solid blank (ash, teak, oak, hickory) or a piece of laminated board? Or do you think carpenters glue will glue it back. The cracks seem to follow the lamination.
This unit was used in the ocean.

[markaram]

The Hunter 21 daysailor has a dagger rudder
design. something similar would work well
on a Mac/venture 21 and 22. I would go for
a Idasailor rudder instead and save yourself
a lot of hassles. At 869.00 or around there
its a pricey addition to any boat.
markaram

[JoeVacs]

Here's a neat rudder design. Seaward 26 is my dream boat. Maybe some day.

http://seawardyachts.com/Rudder.html?

[noahvale]

To lock my rudder, I use a 10/32x24 nylon screw and nut. Costs about a dollar at most hardware stores, Lowes, or Home Depot. If you hit something it will shear off. I keep several spares on board.

I'm not crazy about the design, but it just takes a minute to setup. I unbolt the tiller and store it inside the cabin and put the rudder on the floor of the cockpit.

[valdez53]

Our 1983 Mac 25 (Little Rascal) rudder was upgraded 3 times since we bought the boat new, first with an aluminum plate bolted across the rudder castle which stiffened it up quite a bit...that helped. Then we installed an IdaSailer rudder blade on the modified castle and that helped alot!. I was still not happy with the lift/lowering system and went for the IdaSailer stainless rudder castle w/ gas strut...It was pricy but what a difference! Our autopilot now works about half as much as it did and the boat is very easy to sail now. The rudder no longer "stalls", it stays in position no matter what the seas but swings up easily without damage if/when we hit bottom. (We do a lot of sailing on the Cheasapeake). That rudder and the autopilot have transformed the boat into a stable sailing platform that 1 or two people can handle with ease...and I think the boat is faster now. With the original rudder/castle it use to dart all over the place, swing back at the worst times, and stall when you most needed it.

[Pete]

I am re-thinking this thread. I have had just a couple sails this season and again the rudder has shown its ugly head. Here are the problems.

1. When rudder is up can't get it to go down with out pushing on it with something.
2. When its down can't get it to raise up.
3. The rope to raise and lower the rudder does not have the correct angle to work correctly.
4. Rudder pops up under way without hitting anything. Again the hold down rope angle is not sufficient.
5. with rudder kicked up its very hard to control the boat. rudder hits motor.

Now I need some solutions

[Lloyd Franks]

I rigged a solution to this problem. I don't know how to get a picture up here, but if you send me your e-mail in a private message, I will send it to you. Solution consists of a piece of pvc pipe attached with a hinge to the trailing edge of the rudder, with a 'nipple" for the bungi I use to hold down the keel. When the bungi is engaged the keel stays down, but can rise if bumped on the bottom. The bungi stretches, then returns the rudder to the down position. The pvc pipe raises and lowers the keel easily. The line normally used for raising is now used merely to tie off the raised keel.