Shore Power Installation - Opinions Please.

[Divecoz]

Divecoz

This set-up runs the hot side & the neutral side through their own separate breakers giving you protection against reversed polarity

J

Is this item approved ? if so by who? The basic problem is you are not allowed and for good reason, to fuse the neutral...
ON EDIT: the fused Neutral issue aside.. I like those modules Who makes them? The fused / breaker-ed resets are very cooler IMHO...

[Hardcrab]

Not to pick nits here, but alternating current does not have "polarities" as such.
Certainly no theoritical harm in also fusing the neutral, it's just another potential failure point and perhaps a waste of dollars,IMHO.
The load will never know the difference, and a short will take out the weaker of the two breakers.
As far as protecting against reversed AC polarities, see above sentance.

I guess I'll go out on the limb and be the only one not getting my drawers all knotted up with the job as pictured.
Sure, it looks like less than pro workmanship and materials, but I'll bet it works fine.
You guys that use extension cords better watch out!

C'mon on, we're talking about a trailor sailor stored most of it's life on a trailer far away from the water, and not some charter 40 footer at sea for years on end.

Besides, if the boat gets that much water in the bilges to affect the wiring, other problems will be greater and far ahead of this issue, IMHO.

It all comes down to the price the customer was willing to pay/ or did pay reflecting in the quality of the job.

So, plug it in and enjoy the use of AC while at the dock.
Just don't let the boat sink while still plugged in.

Fire away!

[Divecoz]

Not to pick nits here, but alternating current does not have "polarities" as such.
Certainly no theoritical harm in also fusing the neutral, it's just another potential failure point and perhaps a waste of dollars,IMHO.
The load will never know the difference, and a short will take out the weaker of the two breakers.
As far as protecting against reversed AC polarities, see above sentance.

I guess I'll go out on the limb and be the only one not getting my drawers all knotted up with the job as pictured.
Sure, it looks like less than pro workmanship and materials, but I'll bet it works fine.
You guys that use extension cords better watch out!

C'mon on, we're talking about a trailor sailor stored most of it's life on a trailer far away from the water, and not some charter 40 footer at sea for years on end.

Besides, if the boat gets that much water in the bilges to affect the wiring, other problems will be greater and far ahead of this issue, IMHO.

It all comes down to the price the customer was willing to pay/ or did pay reflecting in the quality of the job.

So, plug it in and enjoy the use of AC while at the dock.
Just don't let the boat sink while still plugged in.

Fire away!

Your sadly to say...... totally incorrect, on every point and exactly why I am totally intolerant of communities who accept romex and such... Now what Highlander is trying to protect himself from is....... some untrained unqualified minimum wage knucklehead , inadvertantely wiring the shore supplied power pedestal incorrectly .
NO harm in fusing the neutral??? OK do you believe you can trip a breaker that fuses a neutral leg ? If you do what have you got?
As it looks good enough for you.... that's a problem another problem is it was paid for and should be done correctly...It was not done by some DIYS-er

[dvideohd]

A lot of "what is right" - is based on hindsight...

When you look at the population of people - shocked, hurt, or killed... what were the common denominators and what could have been done different to protect them?

So you can put together a AC system with scotch tape and lampcord... but when you look at the long term, corrosive effects of saltwater or freshwater... what would be the safest way - and the least damaging way of doing it?

based on that approach, there is a good set of materials to use and a good installation method to do it in.

So IF someone's boat burns down - or IF someone is shocked or killed... could something have been done different that would have somehow prevented the problem?

Look at it from a hindsight standpoint.... I think that is what is really being discussed in terms of acceptable practice...

You can cross a street without looking... But do you want your child to do so? Do you instead take every reasonable precaution to make sure they do it safely?

This is kind of what UL and insurance are all about....

--jr

[SkiDeep2001]

So to those who think that is an acceptable install, if you hired someone to remodel your bathroom and you happened to get a look at the box before it was covered by sheetrock and cover plate you would be happy to have your wife or kids flip the light switch on/off or use the hair dryer while standing on a wet floor with wet feet and towel,that would be cool with you? Amazing

[Currie]

NO harm in fusing the neutral??? OK do you believe you can trip a breaker that fuses a neutral leg ? If you do what have you got?

Lots of different discussions in here, but I just gotta back up Dive on the ground thing. The neutral should always be *hardwired* to ground-potential with no fuses or breakers of any kind. Otherwise it's like an "anti-GFI". A GFI breaks power if it sniffs out even a hint of a loss of ground - so *you* wont be the path taken. A breaker on the neutral actually threatens to COMPLETELY REMOVE your ground leaving *only you* as the obvious path. Really, really bad IMO.

~Bob

[Hardcrab]

Dive,
Please enlighten me on some terminology.

Aren't the three wires in the circuit usually named "hot", "neutral" and "ground"?
If they are named that, then moving a breaker to the "neutral" leg will protect the wiring from shorts/overloads. A simple fact.

Granted, yes, yes, and yes again, this is not how it's done in the real world for various and good reasons, but it will work equally well in the real world to protect the wiring from shorts and overloads.
You correctly argue that it's not how it's done.
I correctly argue that it will protect, if convention is thrown out the window, and if you approach this whole deal as a mind exercise.

I think they call it a "complete circuit", so current loads in the "hot" leg are always equal to current loads in the "neutral" leg.
Much like the convention of placing the single pole switch to a light in the "hot" leg to complete the circuit,
one could place the switch in the "neutral" leg to get the same exact results for the light and wiring.

That's alot of words to say that fusing the "hot" and "neutral" will work on Highlanders boat, but nothing in the way of any "extra protection"
is really gained, IMHO.

If I am confusing "neutral" with "ground", then I'll stand corrected and fully agree with your statement.

"Ground" should never be fused in any real world or mind exercise event.

[Hamin' X]

I am by no means an electrical code expert and I am sure that Dive will explain this more thoroughly. My take on the double "fusing" is that the neutral breaker has the potential of tripping first. If this happens, then the phase (hot) side of the circuit is still live throughout the boat and with the neutral side broken, you could become the path to complete the circuit, with lethal results.

~Rich

[Paul S]

Sure, it looks like less than pro workmanship and materials, but I'll bet it works fine.


It all comes down to the price the customer was willing to pay/ or did pay reflecting in the quality of the job.

So, plug it in and enjoy the use of AC while at the dock.
Just don't let the boat sink while still plugged in.

Fire away!

he paid for professional installation and did not get it. I am sure the dealer didn't disclose before the install.. that he was going to use home rated equipment and not even secure the wires. It is unsafe at best.

if there is a problem down the line, as captain the buck stops at him for having an unsafe boat.

I wouldn't accept this kind of workmanship in an outhouse, nevermind a boat.

Trailer sailing is not an excuse to have poor work done. I would beg it would be more prudent on a trailer sailer type boat to have everything done even better than on a bigger boat, as there is less leway for error.

[Currie]

Hi Hardcrab - I'm sure Dive will comment but if I may jump in as well.

The "Hot" is the electrical feed as the name would imply.
The "Neutral" and "Ground" are both at ground potential - an actual stake deep in the ground. They are redundant, but for a good reason.

In the old days, there was only two-prong wiring. As you said, this is all that's needed to complete a circuit. If you had a power drill or toaster oven, the two wires would run the appliance. Often the metal chassis was either "floating" at no potential or was actually grounded through the "neutral" wire. Perfectly acceptable - as long as the house wiring integrity remained intact. However, if the terminal holding your neutral-wire (either in the receptacle or the fusebox) became corroded or broken, there was no ground anywhere to be found - The whole system, including the chassis, was now at hot potential. Spill some milk on the floor and touch your toaster and you were dead - which happened often enough.

So they came up with the "third prong" - an extra - redundant ground that had to have a separate wire-run all the way down to the stake in the ground, but was still at the same potential as the neutral. The new ground-prong on the plug would be longer, so it would be the first contact made - and it would be connected to the chassis of your appliance. The "neutral" would be exclusively attached to the motor or heating coils or whatever, to take up the juice from the hot. This new ground wire is for added protection only. Lose the neutral and you're still ok. With everything being plastic nowadays, the ground-wire often deadends in the appliance, but it's still part of the wiring.

So yeah, electrically speaking, completing the two-wire circuit, putting breakers on the ground, etc. all makes things operate fine. But the safety features are all now kaputz. If you're ground breaker decides to blow and you're still feeding juice, it's 1930 again so watch out - and don't spill any milk

Cheers,
~Bob

[Hardcrab]

Hamin'X
There would be no electrical reason that the neutral breaker will trip first.
Currents flowing in each leg are equal, being a complete circuit.
The "weakest" of the two breakers will trip first.
By weakest, I mean the actual, measured current to cause a trip is subject to tolerances in mfg, with little chance of two being exactly alike.

The results of this "neutral" trip for the rest of the boat are exactly as you describe.

But the wiring was still protected from the shorted or overloaded condition that caused the trip in the first place.

[Divecoz]

Hardcrab:
Your somewhat correct in your summation of circuit protection. However there is another factor and of greater importance that is to be considered, and that is Personal Protection and that is why you dont interrupt the Neutral. Basically........ you always want an available path to home.
Electricity always looking to go home . That's how it drives a motor per say.
If you lose the neutral path your system is still LIVE and looking for a path to home and your liable to be its best path. Simplified .... electricity is about Best / Easiest, path to ground , to home.
There are lots of misconceptions out there. Grounding is but another in that veryyyyyyyy longgggg list. Up until about 20 years ago, the thought was , when in doubt just ground the circuit ( Neutral)again... However over time with documented negative results , this had been proven to be a faulty theory at best. Now we only ground the neutral Once , and that is at the entrance. You will find ,in the most common of cases , that your Neutral has been bonded to the ground at the service ( i.e. distribution panel ) and only there ....
Its because of so many misconceptions made by the general pubic that many communities now require a thorough home inspection before the transfer of ownership. That is and of itself a whole new thread...
On Edit: Hardcrab you touched on part of the problem......weakest of the two breakers... and again the uneducated may well circumvent the neutrals load carrying capacity but adding more than one "hot " to one neutral. Done properly there should be .... most often .... no problem with two poles returning on a single neutral...notice I said poles.... not phases....... Another misconception

[Hardcrab]

Currie,
Thanks for the explaination.
My point has been all along that, in Highlanders boat, fusing the neutral will protect the wiring for shorts and overloads.
He might be under the impression that some extra protection is had by doing it this way.
I don't think that will prove to be the case.

In the same light, the installation of the origional post will have AC power to the various plugs, no doubt.
It could have been done better and safer in most opinions, and I'll agree with the reasons, but it will work.

Why not insist on a SS conduit, SS sealed boxes, nitrogen filled, pressure loss shut-down interlock, self contained electrical system for all marine applications?
Unharmed by saltwater, pressurized to insure water tightness, and a fail-safe for breaches to water leaks.
Let's spare no possible hazard or expense.
That standard plug at the end of the appliance will certainly need to be replaced with something better suited for the marine environment.
Think of the shock potential there each time you plug something in with those blades exposed each time, not to mention the death lurking behind those open slots in each receptical!
If we want to ease our fears, let's ease them all.

Where does it end?

[Hardcrab]

Thanks Dive,
Your reasoning is spot on correct.
Fusing neutral is foolish.
Highlander ought to bypass his neutral breakers for the reasons you describe.
He's not getting any extra protection from marina miss wired connections, IMHO.

[Divecoz]

It ends with minimally, the NEC. That code was written after a lot of well thought out reasons, and ideas and experience and never, just in Theory.
Please note my use of the word Minimally...... If you so desire to use SS conduit and fittings and devices , even explosion proof fittings your more than welcome to do so. However if they are in fact deemed necessary, you will be required to install them correctly.......
To pay someone, to do what we see has been done , should be obviously unacceptable.
On Edit: Its more involved but a reverse polarity system is available without the risk of electrocution.... Heck its available actually for under $10 at any electrical supply outlet from Ace to Granger.
I did mention earlier Poles versus Phases and your home has 2 poles derived from a single phase. We often use one neutral to return two poles and often one over-sized neutral to return 3 phases...... But Not Always Again its a matter of training and education to know for sure when ... what is necessary ..