Problems tacking while reefed

[c130king]

Happy New Year,

Yesterday was doing some great sailing in 12-15 MPH winds (a guess) on the St. John's River in Jacksonville, FL. I reefed the main (standard reef) and probably had 60-65% of the 150 Genny rolled out. Also only had about 2/3 of the dagger board down due to occassional shallows.

Was sailing consistently at 6.5 - 7 MPH (from close haul to close reach) and heeled around 20-25 degrees most of the time. And of course the grin on my face reflected the incredible time I was having. Hit 8.3 MPH a couple of times.

Until I tried to tack. Probably 5 times in a row I tried to tack and the boat would not come through the wind. It would stall out just about straight up into the wind and then start to fall back. It was sort of frustrating. Finally got it to tack but the situation happened three or four more times later in the day. When the winds died down a little it tacked much easier.

Has anyone else experienced tacking difficulties while reefed? I really didn't want to do gibe turns in those winds. Having full dagger board may have helped. I was careful to try and start the turn slow to avoid disrupting the flow over the rudders.

Thoughts?

Thanks,
Jim

[Oskar 26M]

I've only sailed a few times with a factory reef main, in winds around 20 knots, but I don't recall having any trouble tacking/ coming about. With the speeds you were doing (and full ballast I presume) the boat should have had sufficient inertia to carry it through the turn.

I usually make my tacking turns from close hauled but far enough off the wind to have reasonable boat speed, and execute the turn quite quickly with a full helm reversal. I have not noticed a problem with disrupting the flow over the rudders when I do this.

Maybe the short dagger board was the problem, allowing the boat to slip sideways instead of pivoting on the dagger

[NiceAft]

Jim,

I can not say "I know that this is the solution to the problem". What I do know is that when tacking, I try to do it quickly. Maybe the pivoting was affected by the partial daggerboard? If that is the case, then a quicker, more forceful change in directions could help overcome the slip factor? Isn't that what the daggerboard is for, anti sideways

How much daggerboard do you estimate was down?


Ray

[opie]

Back to basics.... and lots of practice...

As Steve Sleight says in "Sailing Manual" p.66,

"When CB is in the correct position, the effect of the FSail and the MSail are balanced. If CB is raised, the boat will turn away from wind as PivotPoint moves aft. Conversely, the boat will turn INTO wind as CB is lowered and PP moves forward."

[NiceAft]

In other words.....................it's the daggerboard stupid

If you can not lower the daggerboard because of the shallows, then maybe a quicker tack might be enough to overcome the lack of daggerboard. Hopefully

Ray

[John Christian]

Jim, I've had similar problems in lighter air. I've had best success by allowing the Genny to backwind and pull the bow through the tack. Pulling in a few turns on the furler before you tack will help the genny come across without snagging.

Must be nice to be out sailing

JC

[Rob S]

I've often had problems tacking in strong winds whether reefed of not, I overcome it by technique.

If you think about it, the mainsail is the one that is always attempting to round-up, or rotate you into the tack. The genoa is always countering this and trying to drag you with the wind, i.e. away from the tack. It might be that you could have improved things by furling in a bit more genoa to reduce the anti-tacking forces.

But that's not the whole story, and you might not want to furl in the genoa any more because your sail plan is balanced and working well while beating.

The other big thing for the Mac is it's high topsides which catch the wind more so than other lower profile boats. That nice standing headroom has a penalty! As you tack, you put the helm over, which generates drag and starts to slow the boat. Then as the boat gets close to the wind, the sails start to depower (and the boat slows more and the extra force on the topsides slows you even more) If the main starts to luff before the genoa, the genoa will counter your turn and stop the tack dead. By now you've slowed so much that you have the helm hard over to try and keep the rotation going but all this does is make you rudder act like an oar dragging in the water, you are now stopped, almost head to wind. The wind now catches the windward bow and pushes you back away from the tack...... aaargh!

Here's what I do......... start the tack slowly, use slow gentle helm inputs that won't induce high rudder drag. Keep the sails generating power as long as possible while you get a few angles toward the wind. As soon as you sense the sails starting to luff, simultaneously increase helm (smoothly!) and release the jib sheet to depower the genoa and remove its anti-tacking power...... but keep hold of the sheet. This should just get you through irons. Watch the genoa...... as soon as you see the clew go just past the mast, pull in the jib sheet again (the same one you just released) ...... this will "back" the genoa and will have the effect of pulling the bow rapidly though the rest of the tack. As soon as you've got it made, release the "old" jib sheet and sheet in the "new" one and stabilize on the new tack...... all easier said than done when single handing!

Having said all this, different things work in different conditions. If the above slow tack doesn't work very well, you can vary it by doing a fast tack..... First and before all else, release the genoa, then immediately go hard over on the rudder (it will slow you down) but hope that the momentum will carry you through quickly..... but it's releasing the genoa that is the crux of this technique. As before, back wind it to push you the rest of the way through the tack. Good luck!

[NiceAft]

it's releasing the genoa that is the crux of this technique

An interesting technique I have never thought of it. I will definitely have to try to master this on my next sail..........................in the Spring

Ray

[John McDonough]

If conditions make it hard to tack my 26X, I Jibe instead. Instead of turning the bow into and thru the wind I turn sharp away from the wind and circle around 270 degrees. With a lttle practice and caution handlng the Main Sail Boom it seems a lot easier than dealing with all those flapping sails.

[bubba]

I have found that setting the jib first does not work in a tack let it flop while setting the main first will keep your speed up and not put the boat in irons. My wife was used to setting the jib first and our M stalled every time untill she started setting the main first.

[Bumpcity]

I agree...setting the main first usually works best for me...It does not take long and you can have the jib set in not time one you have the main set...

Lorenzo

[ronacarme]

Consider your boat in side view.
Partly raising the daggerboard moves the CLR ( effective center of the immersed hull and boards, or pivot point of the boat) rearward. Thus, to balance the boat for upwind work (including tacking) would seem to require moving the CE (effective center of the above water part of the boat, primarily the sail plan) rearward too....as by unreefing the main and fully...or more fully...furling the jib.
Our 2001 26X with its narrow CB has proven very sensitive to CLR/CE balance, much more so than our old 1988 26D with its wider daggerboard. However, maybe the higher freeboard of the 26M hull makes it more sensitive to CLR/CE balance, than was the 26D????

[NiceAft]

I would think that the difference between the positions of a daggerboard being raised and a centerboard being raised would create slightly different sailing configurations. One simply slides up while the other is actually changing positions in relation to the pivoting center of the craft. In one, the rectangular shape stays in the same vertical position, but decreases in area, thus having the pivoting center of the boat shifting to the rear, while the other literally changes from a vertical to horizontal positioning while decreasing in area, thus shifting the pivoting center of the boat to the rear. I think the X would handle better in the situation that Jim described.

I still believe that if Jim has to keep (because of shallow waters) a decreased amount of daggerboard in the water, he should tack quickly, not slowly.


Ray

[c130king]

Thanks for all the inputs. Good stuff.

I normally keep the dagger board all the way down but didn't in this case as I stated. Did not realize that dagger board depth had that much effect on CLR. I realized that centerboard moving aft/up did but not daggerboard.

Also, I normally fall off a little to get some speed, then start the turn a little slow to keep the rudders from "stalling". And then as I head up at the beginning fo the turn I harden up the main sheet to keep the main powered through the turn and then turn the wheel all the way as I get further into the tack. I do allow the genny to "backwind" but I have never tried easing or releasing the genny sheet to induce the weather helm effect of the main. Will have to try that in the future...which may be a while...the boat is back in storage.

I had to maintain the reef, in my opinion...could not keep my boat on her feet with the full main with 12-15 MPH. The winds may have been higher than that. In those conditions I seemed to be doing very well with the standard reef in the main and the full genny. Full main and I was staying at 35+ degrees of heel.

Take Care,
Jim

[Hamin' X]

I have found that setting the jib first does not work in a tack let it flop while setting the main first will keep your speed up and not put the boat in irons. My wife was used to setting the jib first and our M stalled every time untill she started setting the main first.

I'm not sure why you need to set the main when tacking? If you come about to the same angle to the wind on the opposite tack, your main should already be trimmed and you just need to trim the foresail. Am I missing something?

I agree with the back winding the jib technique. Works well for heavier cloth in light air, also.

~Rich