Imaginary Sinking and What to do

[opie]

Just a thought and question. (I did a search and did not find the answer.)
Imaginary situation (fits my usual mode of sailing):
- Clear day, 6 to 10kts, 1 to 2 foot seas, 3miles off shore, other fishing boats within 1 to 2 miles, CG 4 miles away.
-Sailing with full ballast, 80 degrees, water 78 degrees, 2pm, sundown at 830pm.
- Hit a submerged steel object and hole the hull in a Mac
- Immediate water into boat, easily more than small bilge pump can handle or even a 5 gallon bucket brigade
-Boats starts to sink, say 10 minutes to go.
Questions - What to do?
> Since the Mac has positive floation, do we do a VHF pan-pan and then call Sea Tow or Boat US on channel 16?
> Could a (maybe) 1 foot hole be stoppered with a blanket or sail from outside? (assume hole can not be reached from inside)
> Is this a Mayday occasion? If we are picked up by a nearby boater or CG, is the boat still ours if we abandon it?
>Does a Mayday mean we "have" to abandon ship when CG comes?
> Does the call to Sea Tow or Boat US protect our salvage rights if we leave boat?
>Can a "sunk" Mac be towed to a pier at shore?
> Will the positive floation allow 2 boat crew to sit in cockpit, although up to chest (or chin?) in water?
> Could we just do the VHF pan-pan and take a deep breath with our life jackets on and perhaps investigate the hole? Maybe go over the side with a teather rope? Do repairs? Start bailing since electrical pumps would be shorted out?
> Is it even possible to bail it out with water in the boat and up against the hatchboard? I mean you would have to lift a bucket 2 to 6 feet in the air over the hatch board about a zillion times.

What I am getting at as the summary question, is "with positive floation, will the boat be our liferaft and give us time to think?" Could a "sunk" Mac be refloated at sea if the hole was temporarily plugged? I mean, a regular displacement boat would go to the bottom, but not the Mac.
What would you do?

[Hamin' X]

I would:

• 1. Grab your ditch bag and get it on top of the cabin.
  2. Stay with the boat, but stay out of the water.
  3. Call the Coast Guard and advise them of the situation. They may make a Pan-Pan call.
  4. Call Vessel Assist and get them headed your way.
  5. While waiting for Vessel Assist, make a criss-cross towing bridle from docklines. Stern to bow cleats.

You must inform the Coast Guard, because you are low to the water and a possible navagation hazzard. You need to get back to shore before dark, because you will have no nav, or anchor lights. Stay out of the water, because hypothermia is a danger, even at those temperatures. Your engine will most likely be swamped and unusable and your fuel supply will be contaminated with seawater. Any other ideas?

~Rich

[dennisneal]

First: Put on life jackets, if they're not on already!

Second: Stay with the boat! I'm no expert, but I've taken several Coast Guard Auxillary courses and everyone seems to say to stay on the boat because its easier to see a boat than to see people floating in the water. If you abandon the boat, you will likely get separated.

Third: This a true emergency. Fire flares, call: "MayDay" on the VHF; attract attention! You'll soon lose all electrical power as the boat fills with water. Hopefully, you know your location.

One of my instructors heard the following, (simplified), on VHF:

Boat: "MayDay, MayDay"

Coast Guard: "Where are you?"

Boat: "I'm somewhere between Catalina and the mainland, and when I look overhead I see a cloud that looks like the State of Texas."

Third: The boat will minimally float. A very small hole will allow a lot of water into the boat. Don't go overboard to try to repair a hole. You might drown. I'd stay above water, rather than risk gettting stuck below, but that's a judgement call.

Fourth: Hopefully, you have insurance. Even if you don't and you must abandon the boat, who cares? Save yourselves.

Finally: This rarely happens.

[Terry]

Just a thought and question. (I did a search and did not find the answer.)
Imaginary situation (fits my usual mode of sailing):
- Clear day, 6 to 10kts, 1 to 2 foot seas, 3miles off shore, other fishing boats within 1 to 2 miles, CG 4 miles away.
-Sailing with full ballast, 80 degrees, water 78 degrees, 2pm, sundown at 830pm.
- Hit a submerged steel object and hole the hull in a Mac
- Immediate water into boat, easily more than small bilge pump can handle or even a 5 gallon bucket brigade
-Boats starts to sink, say 10 minutes to go.
Questions - What to do?
> Since the Mac has positive floation, do we do a VHF pan-pan and then call Sea Tow or Boat US on channel 16?
> Is this a Mayday occasion? If we are picked up by a nearby boater or CG, is the boat still ours if we abandon it?>Does a Mayday mean we "have" to abandon ship when CG comes?
> Does the call to Sea Tow or Boat US protect our salvage rights if we leave boat?
>Can a "sunk" Mac be towed to a pier at shore?

Wow!
Is my car still mine if I leave it overnight where it broke down?
Does a call to BCAA (CAA, AAA) protect my salvage rights.
Try confiscating my boat when I'm in peril and your life will be in peril too!
By the sounds of it your situation is redeemable given your proximity to help and safety so hopefully your life will remain intact.
As for your boat....I am not sure, certainly being a member of BoatUS or SeaTow and having your craft towed back to the marina or lanch ramp for you to retrieve is no different than a tow from AAA for your car. I don't know USA or state laws but I don't think you'd be at the mercy of unscrupulous salvagers disguised as rescuers where I live or there would be some retribution on my part.
My Bad, what is this world coming to?

[opie]

Regarding "salvage", this is what prompted part of my question:

PANDA continued to drift about on her own for days and was observed at various times by military as well as private aircraft. Without going into endless detail, and it is endless, I will simply state two points. Point one is that it is not an easy task to get an insurance claims adjuster, insurance surveyor, United States Coast Guard, and a private tow company to all speak on the same wavelength. Trying to do it on a July 4th weekend makes it all the more challenging.

Point two is that that there were "pirates" out there trying their utmost to find and claim PANDA as their own (for salvage rights). Some reputable and very well know organizations were going out to get her, indeed even after they were told to "lay off" because another commercial towing service had been contracted to retrieve the vessel. To this they responded "may the best man win." Leaving your boat alone and out at sea is a very serious and high-risk business. Even after the Coast Guard specifically states that the vessel is not abandoned and her recovery is in progress, there are those who wish to reap great profits at the misfortunes of others. This is especially incongruous when their ads in sailing publications and brochures in chandlries would have you believe they are your boating friend.

http://www.equipped.org/0698rescue.htm

As for towing, etc, the response in a reply above prompts me to think that I should:
=Call SeaAssist for tow to harbor.
= Call CG with pan-pan
= Ride back with SeaAssist while boat is towed.
+? Will SeaAssist (generic term for those type of services) tow a submerged sailboat? Or will a salvage, larger boat be sent out afterwards? The assist companies around here use RIB's with about 200 hp.

[Kelly Hanson East]

FIrst, I am not a lawyer of any kind

Of course your boat is still yours when you abandon it, but anyone who salvages it has a right to claim compensation based on the degree of difficulty and peril they place on themselves to recover your boat. The good news is our boats are so 'value priced' that anyone who thinks they can get rich salvaging macs is in for a rude surprise!!


Marine salvage is a complex issue but the insurance companies like it because instead of writing off your boat they minimise the loss to the salvage claim.

Your/crew safety should be paramount on decisions to stay with the boat, and salvage issues should be way down the list imho. For all intents and purposes, staying with the boat still afloat (any part of it above water) is always the right decision.

Strictly speaking it is a Pan Pan, not a Mayday, since life is not in imminent danger. I would be yelling mayday though



BoatUS advises you to tell anyone who helps you that "This is an assist, not a salvage". They can still claim salvage rights though.

In the Lake Champlain incident in 2002 a was towed to shore while swamped.

There is an urban marine legend that if someone passes THEIR towline to you it is salvage, while if you hand then YOUR line, it isnt salvage. It isnt that simple of course.

Boat: "MayDay, MayDay"

Coast Guard: "Where are you?"

Boat: "I'm somewhere between Catalina and the mainland, and when I look overhead I see a cloud that looks like the State of Texas."

Thats just brutal!!!!

[Kelly Hanson East]

I know that your property is a personal thing, but marine salvage is not a new field - it has evolved over hundreds of years

The fact that people are incentivised to recover boats that are lost in the best interest of all parties - they are not pirates and shouldnt be excoriated.

Of course, we hear of the excesses, but the traditions and laws here are based on reason, even as offensive as they sound.

[nchogberg]

If you are in the Keys, like me, get out and walk the 3 miles to shore!!

[waternwaves]

I would go over the side and patch that mother............

I would rather burn her to the waterline then let some opportunist claim against my recovery plans.....
if if they choose to push the issue with me........ my bet is a super soaker filled with gasoline from the tanks and a lighter would keep anyone from moseying over to attach an unwanted line.....

Where was the dinghy??

how big was the hole?

how big were the cracks.........?

How strong is my 30 mil vinyl blanket and my cockpit seat cusions and 2" straps for holding the temp collision patch in place........

How cold is the water?

where is my wetsuit?

Enquiring minds......

remember it is easier to crawl back into a swamped boat when it is half full of water.......... and it can be bailed once the crack is closed...


Always carry those 5 galloon pails.....

I have tipped and filled many a small sailboat up to about 23 feet............... havent abandoned any of them.

[tangentair]

I would try and slow down or stop it from the inside with cushions and such. Given the water ballast affords some protection from holing, if the hole is high enough, have someone hike out and try and tip the hole above the water line. Or immediately try and get the boat on a high speed run without ballast if that will lift the hole out of the water. I would not abandon the Mac around where I sail because the environment impact of the recovery is greater than my net worth if it breaks up in the wrong place. Also depending on how close you can get to shore, if you can not stop the water and are swamped, toss out an anchor or two. I would add that a handheld vhf is a great backup and is good for the ditch bag. Put on life jackets? - can you get to them without going under water and moving a lot of other stuff and possibly getting trapped under the cockpit? Depending upon how much floatation was removed during mods, the boat will probably float, consider tying yourself off to it. Put your cell phones in baggies or waterproof containers, you may need them when the vhf fails, grab the boat horn to warn away jet skis, drop the sails and run up a portable anchor light or large red flag/turn the Stars and Stripes upside down so you can be seen, locate a signaling device(s). Get fresh water out of the cooler, and some sort of sun screen or protection, you will likely have a wait for the tow boat. (It is a good time to try out that new fishing lure you just bought.) The last time our keel boat lost power (bad coil on the atomic 4), it took 6 hours to get a tow and we were slowing drifting within sight of land (we had not yet stepped the mast and were running from storage to our berth) and got to a point just off the marina when the tow boat finally arrived - we had anchors ready but the wind was off the shore. So we just sat there hungry and thirsty without fishing poles. The marine police checked on us twice but since a tow was on the way, we were trying to get the engine to start and stay running and we were no hazard and not in grave danger, they just monitored our progress. After the initial panic, you can usually control the outcome if you keep your head.

[2BonC]

i would suggest: call the German coast guard !



Rainer

[Alex]

2BonC Thank you , Very cool !!! Bingo !!
Hey Guys, really, what are you talking about.... MacGregor's boats unsinkable

[opie]

Thanks, Tangentair, that was a great synopsis and if my Mac does take on water I will not do a MayDay, but instead just get a tow. Alex, good point on the wording. I should have used the word "swamped" instead of "sinking" in the title of the post. That would be the word I used with the Coast Guard and tow company as well, "Our boat is swamped, but will not sink because we ARE A MACGREGOR 26 sailboat!"

[NiceAft]

but will not sink because we ARE A MACGREGOR 26 sailboat!"

Opie,

Don't be fooled by the staged publicity photo that MacGregor puts in its brochures and web page. The same one that Hamin'x posted. Notice in the picture how everyone is placed perfectly in the center of the swamped boat. In an emergency it would be nice to be able to do that, but, as the song says, "it ain't necessarily so". The boat can be swamped on its side, or turtled. Even if the boat does not sink, you can get very wet.

Ron,

You said everything except SWIM

Ray

[Moe]

Deal with reality rather than imagination.

Have boat insurance that covers salvage. Have boaters insurance that covers total loss of your boat, not just liability.

This IS a total loss situation. The boat is holed and the big-buck outboard, much less its controls, gauges, all electrics, probably all electronics, and all cushions are submerged and ruined. Worse yet, the space between the liners and hull or overhead are filled with organic matter in seawater or freshwater, especially between the styrofoam blocks, and that will require more man-hours to remove and clean out than the boat is worth. If that isn't done, you'll probably never get the smell out. Then there's the damage from towing that will likely occur. Odds are pretty good the insurance company will just pay you for the boat and split any auction proceeds with the salvers.

Screw it, it's a boat and can be replaced. My crew would already have PFDs on. I'm calling May Day, securing running rigging and dock lines so they won't foul the props of rescuers or entangle survivors in the water, and briefing the crew on how to help prevent the boat from rolling and what to do when it does.

I'd rather watch my boat recovered by greedy salvers than a body recovery. Thinking the Mac's positive floatation will keep the boat upright, especially on anything but perfectly calm water, or remove the risk is deeply drinking the MacGregor Kool-Aid.