26M Standard Racing Layout

[John Christian]

Here's a link, don't know if this SF or not.

Laser

[brianhar]

When I posed the quaestion about a standard layout for a racing Macgregor, it was a serious question. I have owned and raced many trialables and cannot see any reason why this boat cannot be raced as well. The main reason behind trying to ascertain if there was a standard layout is to protect the investment on the boat. I would like to fit some serious racing sails and other items onto my boat, however if there is a class restriction on using 'go fast' items, I would be just wasting my money. By the other toss of the coin, I don't want to race and beat other Macgregors, if I've only done it by manipulating the level of expected performance of the boat.

I must admit to being a bit disapointed with the response on this thread. It was a serious question, seeking a serious response.

FYI, I also sail an 'Off the Beach' class catamaran, two up on trapeze and a very large assymetrical kite very competitively. As for claiming that a Laser is a performance boat, how hard can it be to sail, it only has one sail!

[tangentair]

When I posed the quaestion about a standard layout for a racing Macgregor, it was a serious question. ...
I must admit to being a bit disapointed with the response on this thread. It was a serious question, seeking a serious response......As for claiming that a Laser is a performance boat, how hard can it be to sail, it only has one sail!

Kind of hard to take you serious with that type of reply, actually any question on racing a MAC leaves quite a few of us with looks of bewiderment. Yes there are several very serious racers posting here and the Blue Water and Marina Del Ray dealers seem to be into upgrading the boats for speed around a course. But the rest of us prefer our water winabegos.

[bastonjock]

Hi brian

im sure that no one intended anything negative,its just that macs are generally not raced.

things to consider to get some better performance from your mac,ida sailor rudders,pentex sails available from kelly hanson,a garhauer ridgid boom vang,others on the board beef up and add lead to the keel.

leading all lines aft will help,i dont know enough about spinnakers or kites to suggest anything there but maybee modifying the boat for a spinnaker pole is an idea.

as you are a racer i assume that you have your own ideas for improving peformance,what are they?

[Frank C]

... By the other toss of the coin, I don't want to race and beat other Macgregors, if I've only done it by manipulating the level of expected performance of the boat.

I must admit to being a bit disapointed with the response on this thread. It was a serious question, seeking a serious response.

There is no formal racing class for Macs, nor rules to fret over. Make whatever changes you want, bearing in mind you'll eventually be rated by PHRF.

Based upon about ten years of reading in this Forum ... among all USA Mac owners, you'll find fewer than a dozen sail-racing, and fewer still who are really serious about it. You surely won't insult any other Mac owners with "unfair" modifications. You'll be lucky to find one who cares to test you ... much less cares about your degree of performance changes.

And no need to be insulted by our feedback ... it's just a reality of the waterbago.
Few of us want to risk spilling the fridge~!

[K9Kampers]

...its just that macs are generally not raced.

Whaddya mean? Any time two Macs or two sailboats are in visual proximity, there is always a race, whether it is declared or not!

[brianhar]

Down here in Australia, we have a scoring system based on a Class Basic Handicap (CBH), where the class of boat is given a handicap rating and everyone who sails that class regardless of where/wind/whatever is rated to that handicap.

Being new to the Macgregor, and racing of Macgregors being fairly new to Australia, I was keen to find out if there was a standard layout/rules/setup already established. Evidence would now say that there isn't.

To my thoughts, the primary areas that could be upgraded to make the boat go better, would be the sails, rudders and centreboard. Problem is that if I go and modify these items to my choice and race against another Mac in Australia, and win, did I win the race or just 'buy' the race.

Initially I was going to carry out all of these mods, but now I'm starting to change my mind. This is what I'm now thinking of:

Sails:
Spinnaker, using the standard size cruising spinnaker, however using a single line retrival system.
Mainsail, using a heavier grade of quality dacron (radial cut) , having it fully battened and exactly the same shape as the manufacturers.
Jib, having a smaller jib of quality dacron (radial cut) and mounting a self tacking system.

Hardware:
Rudders, importing a set of the flash IDA rudders
Centreboard, retaining the existing unit, and not adding any weight to it, but improving/removing the amount of slop in the centreboard case.
Relocating the traveller back 2' to enable the Admiral room to move during tacks, without getting caught by the mainsheet.

By carrying out these improvements I will have a definate improvement in the boats racing performance, but have not varied enough so that I can't race against a fellow Mac without too much variance.

Your thoughts?

[John Christian]

Problem is that if I go and modify these items to my choice and race against another Mac in Australia, and win, did I win the race or just 'buy' the race.

You bought it, but as I understand yacht racing, isnt that the point???

JC

[tangentair]

I will be curious to see how you relocate the traveler two feet (unless you are talking about the point where it attaches to the boom).
Your CHB is similar to our PHRF except our PHRF, like golf, handicaps the individual specific boat.
the following is copied from another site directly
The three handicapping systems most widely used in the US today, are: PHRF (Performance Handicap Racing Fleet) pronounced 'perf'. In PHRF, a boat is assigned a rating in seconds per mile based on the number of seconds per mile the boat is supposedly slower than a theoretical boat which rates 0. Boats usually rate in a range of between 50 - 250. PHRF supplies a single correction factor that is applied regardless of the conditions of the race, and the numbers are assigned locally to reflect actual winning performance of boat, skipper/crew sailing in local conditions. Both time-on-distance and time-on-time handicapping is used under PHRF, the largest handicap fleet in the US - (click for Rule ) For small centerboard boats there is 'Portsmouth', based on the The Thistle dinghy.

The third is something called a box rule. Hasn't caught on much yet but who knows.

[Kelly Hanson East]

Sorry we swiped your thread Brian...guilty as charged

I dont know of any class standards for the boats so I think your observation is correct. The sails are certainly the first thing to change to get serious about performance, agreed.

There are some serious performance guys on this Board (Leon, Newell come to mind) but mostly its beer-can cruisers like me.

[Jack Sparrow]

Adding dagger board weight
IMO you will have to add some to the board it will not drop down after rounding the bottom mark when you have been running and you can not afford to luff up to get the board to drop when racing, the Mac is too hard to get it going again.
Dagger board slop needs to be removed not just for better performance but also so the crew can sleep at night. The knock is minimal with the board up the down side this allows rolling, being able to leave the board down at night reduces rolling significantly so this is a two fold mod.
IDA rudders
I too felt the steering was heavy, unresponsive and sloppy and had money allocated in the budget to install them. After upgrading the standing rigging, steering system we have finger tip control and are able to release grip on the helm and the boat will hold track, (sorry Leon) I don’t think this mod is necessary the money is better spent on a rigging up grade for our conditions on PPB

Sails
Yes I am think of a full battened loose-footed main when I final destroy the OEM main

Jack Sparrow

[balikai]

Brianhar:

I can say that were I live--landlocked Idaho, we have quite a large Mac racing contigent. I am the only one with an M, but we have an assortment of X's an D's. There are also Cats, J boats, and every now and then a Trimaran. In terms of a single sailing class the Mac's are the largest group in our regattas, followed by the Cats.

The fast Mac's are the people on the D's. They have all lines led aft, upgraded sails, ida sailor rudders/daggerboards (hey, they are made here in Idaho), and typically they are not loaded down for overnighters nor are they laden with a 50 or 70hp motor--just small kick ups. Just by the nature of the D they will (sailing skills being equal) beat the X and Ms everytime.

Many of the Mac's have spinakers, but don't fly them due to the penalty and the fact that it usually takes more than a two member crew (capt and first mate) to effectively deal with the spinaker.

I bought my Mac to cruise and race. If you don't mind winning by "adjusted time" versus being the very first across the line, then go race em. My indirect expereince has been that sail and rudder/daggerboard upgrades will give you the most (albeit incremental) increase in performance. Agreeing with the other posters, no one will mind what upgrades you do to your boat. People race the Mac's for fun and the comraderie.

We have an adjusted PHRF rating for Mac's in our area based upon years worth of race results. IF you are interested I can PM you with the data.

[brianhar]

Thanks all for the constructive comments, much appreciated.

tangentair,
The explanation on the US system for handicapping was informative and makes a lot more sense to me in regards to a number of other comments scattered throughout the various threads. By having a more personallised handicapping system, you have a lot more freedom to modify your boat to your hearts content. Alas, we don't have this system down here, that's why I'm trying so hard to determine a standard layout for all of us Aussie Mac drivers.

Jack Sparrow,
I'm looking forward to meeting up with you and your boat one day to peruse the hundred and one mod's that you have done to your boat. In regards to the weighted daggerboard, I understand where your coming from as I have already experienced the problem. I just used my boat hook pole to push down the daggerboard in the moments just before heading to windward. However I think adding a small amount of weight, say 10 to 20 kgs to the base would not be varying the performance of the boat, but allowing the daggerboard to drop whilst still having an amount of speed in the boat downwind. Just need to think of an easy way to acheive this.
I'll reserve my opinion on the swapout of the rudders until I see your boat.
Loose footed V's closed foot, I think arguments could be waged for days on this aspect, as I've had both and no great difference noted. Fully battened V's partial battens. I love full battens, as I tend to think that the sail holds it shape for a much longer period of time, thus reducing the frequency and cost of sailing. Not to mention the light air advantage.

balikai
thanks for your info on the cross class racing, I would really appreciate it if you could send me some data on your race results. Additionally it may help our National handicapper, when we try to apply for a CBH for a 26M. Currently we only have a CBH (Handicap) for the X, and seeing that I'm currently performing well below this handicap, I'm in no hurry to challenge it. I'm hoping that after a season of racing, I might some some decent data to hand on. It's also going to take a bit of time (and money of course) to get the boat, crew, and skipper up to speed too!

I've ordered a cruising spinnaker for the boat (as I'm told the racing one never made it out to Australia). First race with the spinnaker is this Sunday. Will give feedback next week on the performance.

I pick the main up from the sailmaker tomorrow, it's a bit sad and I needed a sail number and another intermediate reef put in. I asked about getting it recut to give me a bit more time to worry about getting a new main. I haven't heard a sailmaker laugh so much before. Once he calmed down, he said that he had never seen such poor cloth before and that it wasn't worth the time (and my money) to bother recutting it. I have to give him credit for one thing, at least he was honest and didn't rip me off. Just need to save a bit harder eh!

[AJ]

Hello Brian,

Where are you racing? I crew out of Royals but have never considered racing the Waterbago amoung the macho machines raced out of the keel boat clubs+it's too big for the local trailable club (limit 22 ft I think).
I reckon I'd get my son out more often if he thought he was going to be doing more than (in his eyes) aimless sailing around. Would be interested in hearing how you go getting a rating.

Agree about the main - mine is in it's fifth season and has become distinctly baggy. Reckon the full batten is the go - hard to keep a reasonable shape without it. Would definitely go for a heavier cloth for our conditions.

It is possible to race these things - I know of one X in Sydney that puts crew out on a trapeze and manages to achieve very respectable finshes.

Cheers,

AJ

[brianhar]

AJ,
during the Winter season I sail down at Geelong Trailable Yacht Club (GTYC) operating out of St Helens Safe Harbour. I did a deal with them last year to do the Winter season for $60. Or could just pay $10 visitor fees each time. I normaly sail out of Altona Yacht Club, where I race my cat.
GTYC race on the 1st and 3rd Sunday of each month, with a start time of 11am. Have a look at their website for more detail, or PM me with your phone number and I'll give you a ring to discuss further.

In the short term GTYC has me using the CBH for a 26X, and until I've got the boat performing to what I think is close to it's best, I'll just let that rating remain. Once I'm up to speed, I'll be approaching Yachting Victoria to establish a 26M CBH. I should have some useful data to help the handicapper with by then as well.

Was having a chat with the sailmaker at North Sails (St Kilda) on Thursday about his thoughts on trailable mains. Particularly, fully battened V's partial, also spoke about loose V's closed foot sails as well.
In his opinion, having just one full batten near the top of the sail is a much better option than fully battened. Because it gives you a much broader range of wind before needing to reef. I've experienced this on my cat with it's fully battened sail. Once it is starting to get overpowered, I crank on some serious mast bend to flatten out the main, thus decreasing the power available. Once this arrangement overpowers I have to let off main, and rely on twist off on the top of the high roach main. A Mac sail is basically a triangle with negligable mast bend and no high aspect roach to dump power. An overpowered fully battened sail still keeps on working even when the main is let fully out, and it won't flog at all. Best scenario is when the battens flip over and you finally loose drive. By only having the one full batten and the rest being partial, you still have good sailshape induced into the sail during light airs, but have the ability to let off and have the sail dump power in a controlled manner before needing to reef. Long winded wasn't it eh!
Loose footed over closed, basically no difference, it's just a left over from bygone days. Closed foot is easier to control, easier to manufacture, and therby cheaper to buy.

Would be great to have another Mac to run against, we can tune each other up. Be a bit more exciting for your son as well (maybe?)