project venture-17

[littledevil]

there should be a nut holding down the crank arm isn't it?

[/img]

[littledevil]

this last picture shows the back of the deck eye thay holds the sheet for the main. is it looks kind of weak? i can put a wood block or something and maybe go with bigger nuts and bolts.

[img][img]http://i127.photobucket.com/albums/p148 ... /o2070.jpg[/img]
also some other deck hardware only attachad by washers and nuts. would that be better idea to go through all of them and make some wood back plate sort of thing? thanks [/img]

[Ivan Awfulitch]

thanks for the info about the rudder. following pics may give you an idea about the condition of the keel, winch and cable. it seems to be normal but water tightness will be tested later when we take it to water(fingers crossed)
i have checked the taylormade website to see if anything available for those little clips. it seems like they have lots of new products but not much about this clips. maybe i can fabricate something and wedge it. their location is kinda low so fenders doesn't really hang freely so that may not work.

what do you think? am i too optimistic to call it cosmetic damage. wear and tear?

I have to say that I have seen worse. There was another 17 that was kept in the water at a local lake we sailed occasionally. When it was out of the water, the keel didn't look as good as yours. What they did was to seal any openings with a water-resistant patching compound, then they gave it several coats of a 2 part epoxy paint. I wouldn't worry too much about it before taking it out and sailing it. If you find it's taking on a lot of water when you pull out (have someone watch under the trailer as you pull out) then I'd move it up on the list of things to do. One problem that plagued this boat was the Sailrite trailers that they shipped on. 2 things happened:
1. Sometimes the cable wasn't tight enough on the keel and it managed to bounce against the frame. The previous owner installed 2 2X6 boards the length of the trailer with a slot slightly wider than the keel, which centers the boat perfectly on the trailer. Then, they put a small V bumper (like you have at the bow) under the end of the keel (about 3" from the bottom end of the keel). When trailering, once the boat is pulled to the front of the trailer I simply let the tension off the winch and the keel rides on the rubber stop, keeping shock off the cable. This has worked since it was modified in 1973.
2. The springs lost their bend, and allowed the trailer axel to bump against the keel. This was the problem with mine, but was easily fixed by a local spring shop who added a new leaf.

On the winch, there should be a nut on the handle as you don't want it falling off while sailing. Shouldn't hurt anything if it does fall off unless it falls off while you're lowering the keel, and then it's a shock on the system better avoided. It doesn't have to snug down tight against the handle (probably will get tight and stop before you get there), just on enough so the handle can't fall off. I put a wing nut on mine as we would take the winch handle off when we had 3 or 4 in the boat to keep from bruised shine.

On the mainsheet swivel cleat, I added a piece of 3/8" plywood under, attached with construction adhesive then bolted using fender washers. It flexed too much for my taste, and the bolts would work lose over time before I added the plywood.

Finally, the fender clips. Here's what you have now.
http://www.westmarine.com/webapp/wcs/st ... assNum=456

[littledevil]

thanks for the info about the rudder. following pics may give you an idea about the condition of the keel, winch and cable. it seems to be normal but water tightness will be tested later when we take it to water(fingers crossed)
i have checked the taylormade website to see if anything available for those little clips. it seems like they have lots of new products but not much about this clips. maybe i can fabricate something and wedge it. their location is kinda low so fenders doesn't really hang freely so that may not work.

what do you think? am i too optimistic to call it cosmetic damage. wear and tear?

I have to say that I have seen worse. There was another 17 that was kept in the water at a local lake we sailed occasionally. When it was out of the water, the keel didn't look as good as yours. What they did was to seal any openings with a water-resistant patching compound, then they gave it several coats of a 2 part epoxy paint. I wouldn't worry too much about it before taking it out and sailing it. If you find it's taking on a lot of water when you pull out (have someone watch under the trailer as you pull out) then I'd move it up on the list of things to do. One problem that plagued this boat was the Sailrite trailers that they shipped on. 2 things happened:
1. Sometimes the cable wasn't tight enough on the keel and it managed to bounce against the frame. The previous owner installed 2 2X6 boards the length of the trailer with a slot slightly wider than the keel, which centers the boat perfectly on the trailer. Then, they put a small V bumper (like you have at the bow) under the end of the keel (about 3" from the bottom end of the keel). When trailering, once the boat is pulled to the front of the trailer I simply let the tension off the winch and the keel rides on the rubber stop, keeping shock off the cable. This has worked since it was modified in 1973.
2. The springs lost their bend, and allowed the trailer axel to bump against the keel. This was the problem with mine, but was easily fixed by a local spring shop who added a new leaf.

On the winch, there should be a nut on the handle as you don't want it falling off while sailing. Shouldn't hurt anything if it does fall off unless it falls off while you're lowering the keel, and then it's a shock on the system better avoided. It doesn't have to snug down tight against the handle (probably will get tight and stop before you get there), just on enough so the handle can't fall off. I put a wing nut on mine as we would take the winch handle off when we had 3 or 4 in the boat to keep from bruised shine.

On the mainsheet swivel cleat, I added a piece of 3/8" plywood under, attached with construction adhesive then bolted using fender washers. It flexed too much for my taste, and the bolts would work lose over time before I added the plywood.

Finally, the fender clips. Here's what you have now.
http://www.westmarine.com/webapp/wcs/st ... assNum=456

i will keep an eye on the keel when we take it out of the water to see what is going on. i also liked the wingnut idea because i also thought it would be more comfortable without having that handle all thi time. trailer is homemade it seems ok and also has that keel rest which takes the tension off the cable.
i am going to add the back plates to most deck hardware but i need to gain some info about the principals of working on the deck hardware. i can't reach the mods page to check some similar stuff. do you guys use chaulking or similar product to weather proof this kind of applications?
thanks for the link to the fender clips. they must be the same so i think we can keep using them

i will be on vacation for 3 weeks. i would like to thank everyone in this board for sharing their experiences which definately gave me head up. we will take the boat for a maiden voyage as soon as i get back. if you don't hear from me check youtube to watch a guy going submarine with a isuzu amigo while trying to launch his boat.

[Kelly Hanson East]

The product of choice for sealings is marine adhesive made by 3M

4200 for semi-permanent applications
5200 for permanent applications.

you can buy small toothpaste tubes or the more economical standard caulk gun size tubes.

Great stuff. Buy vinyl or nitrile gloves to apply since cleaning it off skin isnt easy.

[Graham Carr]

Puggsey, I thought you might like to see this web site on twin-keeled sailboats

Twin-Keeler web site

Graham

[littledevil]

ok i am back.
we took the boat to the river last weekend. we did ok i guess. we have used the ramp in poughkeepsie riverfront. it was first time for all of us so there was some funny stuff going on launching the boat but things went allright. wind was pretty strong blowing from north west so we had some speed towards north on hudson river. it was lot of fun altough we didn't really know what we were doing. on the way back our skill, which we don't have much, wasn't enough to proceed with sail so we used the motor. only leak we have was from drain plug( it was very old ) and the rudder attachment. the wood backing for rudder is rotted and needs to be raplaced. i bought 3m marine adhesive as suggested and waiting for a chance to do the job. here is some pics


our big rig

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whole crew


chief engineer
[/img]
picture of disaster.

like a natural born sailor i sense the thunderstorm that closing in and pull the boat and my crew to safety before things go wrong. all joke a side it was a beatifull day and we enjoyed it a lot . thanks everyone for sharing their experiences with us. we have some work to do with trailer as well. rear is soo low that we scraped the driveway and the launching ramp couple times which gave us a little crack on the welding job done at the corner. i have chacked the autozone. thay have some solutions like you put a block under the leafs and raise it. too much projects soo little time.[/img][/url]

[johnnyonspot]

I am relating from a Mac 25 so how much this applies to your V17 is an open question. First, I find it hard to believe that the rudder stays all the way down while sailing without being held down by either line running from one side of the rudder where it is knotted to keep it from slipping, through a hole in the leading edge of the rudder, and up and forward slightly to a small block located down low on the assembly (when I say "assembly" I mean the metal piece that attaches to the transom and that holds the rudder at the bottom and the tiller at the top, and which has a proper name that escapes me at the moment), and then up to the cleat on the side of the rudder assembly. You simply pull up on this part of the line until the rudder is all the way down and then cleat it off, making sure it remains fully down during the cleating process. The other option for keeping the rudder down is the use if a sacrificial plug that is inserted through the rudder and the assembly. These are sold by Idasailor fwiw. Tightening the pivot bolt to the point where it keeps the rudder down does not seem correct to me, though if it works then it works. One thing you will find, or have found, is that these boats are not rocket science. If you've found a way that works well enough, even if it may not be the "correct" way, then go with it until you find something better. The point is to be out sailing, after all. This advice applies to every part/system on the boat.

Another thing. I am not familiar with the V17 keel, but it looks like it is cast iron encapsulated in fiberglass, no? This is completely different from my Mac 25, which has a simple cast iron keel with no encapsulation. I simply take off any rust each year, paint it up with some primer and good outdoor paint, and voila. Were I you, I might look into the propriety of simply taking all that encapsulated whatever it is over the cast iron off the keel altogether and leaving it at that. Of course, making sure the keel is made rust free and then primed/painted is a must.

One last point re your keel. The assembly where the cable hooks to the bolt going through the keel is a mess. That hardware does not look like it is stainless steel as it is very corroded, nor is it the proper hardware, again judging by my Mac 25. I would jettison that junk and install proper SS hardware. You do not want that point to fail out on the water and have to jury rig a way of getting your keel raised in order to put the boat on the trailer. This should be a high priority item IMHO.

Finally, your mainsheet system is very similar to my Mac 25, though I do have the double sheaved block on the end of my boom for more mechanical advantage. Is this needed on a V17? I don't know. Perhaps the loads generated by your main are such that it can be handled fine with no mechanical advantage. Does your mainsheet system look pretty or smooth? No, but who cares? This brings me back to my earlier statement: if it works, great! Do it that way until you find something better. Its your boat.

Happy sailing!

[Ivan Awfulitch]

Looks like you had a great time. It doesn't look like you have a topping lift on your boom. The 17 has a place at to attach a line toward the top of the mast, and should have a swivel at the end of the boom to attach. Much easier to handle the boat if the boom stays up and out of the way when not under sail.

As for the trailer problem, I took mine to a local spring shop. They fixed the mounting eyes and added a new leaf. Brought the trailer up so it didn't bump the keel with the axle. At the rear of my trailer, the previous owner added 2 heavy angle brackets and put a 12 inch wide 4 inch diameter steel roller with a removable steel shaft. When pulling out of a drive or place with low clearance, the roller hits the ground and rolls the trailer along. Looked funny, but works like a charm. Another mod I have on my trailer is mounting 2 x 8 boards the entire length of the trailer, 1 on each side with a space just wide enough for the keel to pass with an inch or so of clearance. This makes the boat self center on the trailer, and you can walk out to easily hook up the boat for retrieval.

By the way, what plug was leaking on your boat?

[argonaut]

Afternoon.
The mainsheet rigging looks exactly right to me from memory.
I had a 1974 model V17. Remember that boat employed roller type reefing. The tang at the end of the boom pivoted, & allowed you to roll some main onto the boom to reduce sail area. Not such a great idea on a broad reach having all that sheet going out over the water to the end of the boom... sometimes mine got wet. On the plus side it made the cockpit easier to get around in. You could reposition the mainsheet forward but you´d want to think about an alternate reefing method.
I have not so fond memories of that dang keel winch nearly breaking my hand, and the tiny claustrophobic cabin was a solar cooker in Florida sun. Vents would be great in there. Mine sailed not so great, but at that time I had no idea why.

Mine really needed sail controls, a vang & cunningham would´ve helped a lot.

[littledevil]

I am relating from a Mac 25 so how much this applies to your V17 is an open question. First, I find it hard to believe that the rudder stays all the way down while sailing without being held down by either line running from one side of the rudder where it is knotted to keep it from slipping, through a hole in the leading edge of the rudder, and up and forward slightly to a small block located down low on the assembly (when I say "assembly" I mean the metal piece that attaches to the transom and that holds the rudder at the bottom and the tiller at the top, and which has a proper name that escapes me at the moment), and then up to the cleat on the side of the rudder assembly. You simply pull up on this part of the line until the rudder is all the way down and then cleat it off, making sure it remains fully down during the cleating process. The other option for keeping the rudder down is the use if a sacrificial plug that is inserted through the rudder and the assembly. These are sold by Idasailor fwiw. Tightening the pivot bolt to the point where it keeps the rudder down does not seem correct to me, though if it works then it works. One thing you will find, or have found, is that these boats are not rocket science. If you've found a way that works well enough, even if it may not be the "correct" way, then go with it until you find something better. The point is to be out sailing, after all. This advice applies to every part/system on the boat.

Another thing. I am not familiar with the V17 keel, but it looks like it is cast iron encapsulated in fiberglass, no? This is completely different from my Mac 25, which has a simple cast iron keel with no encapsulation. I simply take off any rust each year, paint it up with some primer and good outdoor paint, and voila. Were I you, I might look into the propriety of simply taking all that encapsulated whatever it is over the cast iron off the keel altogether and leaving it at that. Of course, making sure the keel is made rust free and then primed/painted is a must.

One last point re your keel. The assembly where the cable hooks to the bolt going through the keel is a mess. That hardware does not look like it is stainless steel as it is very corroded, nor is it the proper hardware, again judging by my Mac 25. I would jettison that junk and install proper SS hardware. You do not want that point to fail out on the water and have to jury rig a way of getting your keel raised in order to put the boat on the trailer. This should be a high priority item IMHO.

Finally, your mainsheet system is very similar to my Mac 25, though I do have the double sheaved block on the end of my boom for more mechanical advantage. Is this needed on a V17? I don't know. Perhaps the loads generated by your main are such that it can be handled fine with no mechanical advantage. Does your mainsheet system look pretty or smooth? No, but who cares? This brings me back to my earlier statement: if it works, great! Do it that way until you find something better. Its your boat.

Happy sailing!

we have played with the lines on the rudder and now i am sure it stays down during sailing so we have no problem with it anymore. keel is iron wrapped in fiber. i would like to go through and replace the hardware etc as you suggested but i am little bit scared to open bad can of worms with that keel. it works fine for now and i have very little free time. so maybe winter i can do this thing.

[littledevil]

[quote="Ivan Awfulitch"]Looks like you had a great time. It doesn't look like you have a topping lift on your boom. The 17 has a place at to attach a line toward the top of the mast, and should have a swivel at the end of the boom to attach. Much easier to handle the boat if the boom stays up and out of the way when not under sail.

As for the trailer problem, I took mine to a local spring shop. They fixed the mounting eyes and added a new leaf. Brought the trailer up so it didn't bump the keel with the axle. At the rear of my trailer, the previous owner added 2 heavy angle brackets and put a 12 inch wide 4 inch diameter steel roller with a removable steel shaft. When pulling out of a drive or place with low clearance, the roller hits the ground and rolls the trailer along. Looked funny, but works like a charm. Another mod I have on my trailer is mounting 2 x 8 boards the entire length of the trailer, 1 on each side with a space just wide enough for the keel to pass with an inch or so of clearance. This makes the boat self center on the trailer, and you can walk out to easily hook up the boat for retrieval.

[/img]

as i have sailed more i realize that topping lift is reaaly important. i couldn't find anything on the top of the mast but came up with that idea. what do you think? i can somehow attach it to the end of the boom and create a little system to raise or lower the end of the boom. only problem is reefing(if i ever need it) would be hard i think. boom doesnt turn on the mast to roll in some sail anyway. manual shows that there is a system that allows the boom rotate but mine is broken and they just weld a piece there so it doesn't rotate anymore.

these sheet blocks came with the boat. they seemed ok and now they replaced with the cleats. i could't try them yet but probably they will make things easier

[/img] that was the plug. it was leaking an i bought this one from wallymart for couple dollars. it works perfect.

here i have one question
during our last sailing i looked down and realize that water was coming in to the cocpit from this. we were 3 people on board. what is the purpose of that. looks like plumbing and my wife can tell you you that i don't know much about that? should i keep it plugged or is that for safety of the boat etc? i have no idea. thanks[/img]

[Ivan Awfulitch]

as i have sailed more i realize that topping lift is reaaly important. i couldn't find anything on the top of the mast but came up with that idea. what do you think? i can somehow attach it to the end of the boom and create a little system to raise or lower the end of the boom. only problem is reefing(if i ever need it) would be hard i think. boom doesnt turn on the mast to roll in some sail anyway. manual shows that there is a system that allows the boom rotate but mine is broken and they just weld a piece there so it doesn't rotate anymore.

Your idea may have merit on the topping lift. It's only use is to keep th boom elevated and actually under sail is not needed. I never had the need to reef the sail so I don't know how useful it is to roll the sail on the boom. On the end of the boom, you should have 2 metal tabs (about 3/4" x 1 1/2"), one to attach the main sheet and a second for the topping lift.

these sheet blocks came with the boat. they seemed ok and now they replaced with the cleats. i could't try them yet but probably they will make things easier

Those will make sailing much easier, and are exactly what I have on my 17.

that was the plug. it was leaking an i bought this one from wallymart for couple dollars. it works perfect.

I have no plug on my 1971, this may have been added by a previous owner due to water leakage, possibly from the item below.

here i have one question during our last sailing i looked down and realize that water was coming in to the cocpit from this. we were 3 people on board. what is the purpose of that. looks like plumbing and my wife can tell you you that i don't know much about that? should i keep it plugged or is that for safety of the boat etc? i have no idea. thanks

Is that pipe in the cockpit or the cabin? The only "pipe" on the 17 is the tube that routes the winch cable through the hull by the companionway. There is no reason for any other through hull on this boat. I would suggest getting it sealed permanently as a through hull there would be a major sinking hazard.

By the way, I found this for my nephew, a link for a manual for this (series) of boat. It's not the greatest scan, and it does mention spreaders (which the 17 does not use) but it might be some help.

http://macgregor-sailor.com/images/stor ... Manual.pdf

[littledevil]

i'll check the end of the boom again. about the pipe: yes it is in the cabin area not in the cocpit. it comes from the opening at the bottom of the boat. i thought there must be a purpose for it. its located on the starboard side. i can easily keep it permanently plugged but just being curious.

[littledevil]

thanks for the link by the way. nice.